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Old October 7, 2009, 03:11 PM   #26
Hkmp5sd
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From what the FFL told me, both parties don't even have to live in Fla. They just have to both be in Fla, face-to-face, at the time.
Your FFL told you wrong. For a firearm ownership to cross state lines, the firearm must go through at least one FFL per federal law. If the firearm is a handgun, it must pass through an FFL in the receiver's home state. The only exception is the bequethment of a firearm following death.
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Old October 7, 2009, 06:24 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by gb_in_ga
So, next time I was down in Fla I brought the weapon & goodies along with me. I contacted a FFL in the area to do the transfer, not knowing whether my being a resident of a different state meant that I'd have to do a FFL transfer on it. The FFL said not to bother. He said that as long as I was physically in Fla and face to face, it didn't matter that I am from out of state as long as there were no other impediments to the transaction (which there weren't). Just hand it off, face-to-face, as a gift.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...2----000-.html

Nice. So you committed a felony, violating 18 USC 922(a)(5) and the recipient, a LEO, committed a felony, violating 18 USC 922(a)(3).

Physical location of the parties involved in the transfer does not matter. What state of residency the parties have is what matters. And I mean very nice of an FFL to tell you that, ESPECIALLY when he could have made money on the deal for merely filling out a form and making a phone call to make it legal.
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Old April 11, 2011, 08:29 AM   #28
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Before everyone starts questioning everyones post I would just like to clear up that almost everyone has said the same thing and they are all right for the most part. You can in fact own a handgun under the age of 21 but you can not carry it on your person at anytime for any reason. You can transport it to and from a shooting facility and you can carry it in your vehicle at all times but in order to do so you must have it either a) holstered and in your glovebox b) in it's designated carrying case or c) you can have it in a holster in a ziplock bag and place it on the seat next to you in the vehicle as long as it's not touching your person. But from what I have been told by many state officials, swat members, and local law enforcement you can only be gifted a handgun by someone in your family unless otherwise arranged by your legal gaurdians(patents).
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Old April 11, 2011, 08:53 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by OKeeRSO
But from what I have been told by many state officials, swat members, and local law enforcement you can only be gifted a handgun by someone in your family unless otherwise arranged by your legal gaurdians(patents).
In general, "law enforcement" are the worst people to ask questions about gun laws, because they usually don't know the answers and they're (usually) prone to making it up. But they don't tell you that.

I would be VERY surprised if Florida state law says anything about giving (when did "gift" become a verb) a firearm to minors that's different from giving firearms in general, irrespective of age. To whatever extent Florida state law addresses giving firearms to minors (or to adults between 18 and 21), I doubt very much that such gifts can come only from relatives.

We need a citation of the actual statute for your information to have any validity.
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Old April 11, 2011, 09:42 AM   #30
GoOfY-FoOt
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??? If you are over 18 years of age, wouldn't you be your own legal guardian? How can a parent or former guardian authorize something for an adult?

And, I don't recall the OP stating anything about the recipient being under 21.

I guess this is all purely academic, anway...
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Old April 11, 2011, 11:03 AM   #31
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Thanks for bringing up the ol' dead thread... But your reply needs some factualizing...

Quote:
You can in fact own a handgun under the age of 21 but you can not carry it on your person at anytime for any reason.
Actually... The 18 year old can open carry it while fishing or hunting where it is legal for anyone else to carry. This is just 2 instances.

Quote:
You can transport it to and from a shooting facility and you can carry it in your vehicle at all times but in order to do so you must have it either...
Quote:
a) holstered and in your glovebox
Who told you it had to be holstered and? That is 100% NOT TRUE! It can be in the G-box with no holster, loaded, one in the chamber and safety off if you so desire. The G-box is THE CASE.
Quote:
b) in it's designated carrying case or
In a "designated" (as you call it) carrying case, it can be put literally any where in the vehicle except on your person.
Quote:
c) you can have it in a holster in a ziplock bag and place it on the seat next to you in the vehicle as long as it's not touching your person.
NO ZIP LOCK BAG! A simple holster will suffice. It can be stuffed 'tween your driver's seat and the console. It can be in the console with NO HOLSTER! It can be in a holster and just tossed under the seat also.
Actually, if it can be viewed and identified as a "gun", IT MUST NOT BE IN PLAIN VIEW!!!
Quote:
But from what I have been told by many state officials, swat members, and local law enforcement you can only be gifted a handgun by someone in your family unless otherwise arranged by your legal gaurdians(patents).
At 18 you are your own "LEGAL GUARDIAN". No One on this forum would ever entertain the notion of a gun owner giving a gun to a child that he/she is not charged with the welfare of. So the above quote is also full of holes...

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Old May 30, 2011, 01:07 AM   #32
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The person receiving the handgun does not have to be 21 years of age. The person needs to be 18 years of age. You need to be 21 by federal law to purchase a handgun from any FFL holder. NavyLT, you cant necessarily go buy a gun from an FFL and then the same day turn around and give it away to someone else. You sign the form 4473 by agreeing youre the actual purchaser of the firearm. If you bought that firearm the same day and gave it to someone that same day as well, thats a felony. Now, if you wait alittle bit, it probably wouldnt be a big deal the problem is, the law doesnt state how long.
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Old May 30, 2011, 11:04 AM   #33
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The person receiving the handgun does not have to be 21 years of age. The person needs to be 18 years of age. You need to be 21 by federal law to purchase a handgun from any FFL holder. NavyLT, you cant necessarily go buy a gun from an FFL and then the same day turn around and give it away to someone else. You sign the form 4473 by agreeing youre the actual purchaser of the firearm. If you bought that firearm the same day and gave it to someone that same day as well, thats a felony. Now, if you wait alittle bit, it probably wouldnt be a big deal the problem is, the law doesnt state how long.
Sure you can, as long as it is truly a gift, there is no time limit. Now if you buy and resell, that is a little different, in that case it is not a gift. But even then there is no time frame involved. Example you go buy the newest hot gun. Go to the range with your bud the next day, shoot it few times, hate it. Your bud shoots it and loves it, their would be no issue selling the gun to him that day. What would be illegal is if your bud called you up and said, yeah could you drop by the gun store on the way home and pick up that hot new pistol for me, I'll pay you for it when you get here. The key is intent, are you intending to give the gun away, then you can buy it. Are you intending to buy the gun to keep, then you can buy it even if you don't keep it very long. If you buy guns intending to resell then you are a dealer in guns and need your own FFL.

All this assumes, you are residents of the same state, the state allows person to person sales without paperwork, and the receiver is legal to own a gun in the state.
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Old May 30, 2011, 11:33 AM   #34
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No you really cant. It wouldnt be smart to seriously give a brand new firearm to someone the same day you bought it. Regardless of your intent. No one buys a gun the same day, and then thinks to themselves about giving it away because they didnt like it. No one will believe that, not the ATF, or local LE. Let an ATF agent find out you did that and youll be in jail. No one would believe you if you said it was gift, that includes the ATF or a Prosecutor. Incase you didnt know, the ATF is in business to lock up anyone suspected of breaking firearm laws. The form 4473 clearly states youre the the sole buyer of the firearm and thats what an agent will use against you. Keep in mind, Federal Law also trumps state law. The argument for intent work for the same day give away because the ATF can prove your intent was to simply provide a straw sale purchase.
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Old May 30, 2011, 11:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Brandon, Glidden
NavyLT, you cant necessarily go buy a gun from an FFL and then the same day turn around and give it away to someone else. You sign the form 4473 by agreeing youre the actual purchaser of the firearm. If you bought that firearm the same day and gave it to someone that same day as well, thats a felony. Now, if you wait alittle bit, it probably wouldnt be a big deal the problem is, the law doesnt state how long.
NavyLT is correct, and you are mistaken.

You are correct that the 4473 asks if you are the actual purchaser of the firearm. It does NOT ask for what purpose you are buying it. If I purchase a handgun for the express purpose of giving it to my wife as a birthday present, I can take the gun home, wrap it in fancy paper with ribbons and bows, and give it to her that same evening. My wife is not a prohibited person, so there is nothing illegal about doing so.

You are correct that the law says nothing about how much time must elapse before you can give away a firearm you bought. That's because the law doesn't require any time to elapse. The law is about preventing people who are not allowed to possess (or buy) firearms from getting other people to buy firearms for them. Don't read into the law more than is there.
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Old May 30, 2011, 11:57 AM   #36
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From the back of the 4473:
Quote:
For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.

ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a
.
There is absolutely nothing in federal law that states that I cannot purchase a firearm as a gift and immediately gift it to someone. To say there is, is merely baseless opinion.
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Old May 30, 2011, 11:57 AM   #37
Brandon.Glidden
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No you really cant. It wouldnt be smart to seriously give a brand new firearm to someone the same day you bought it. Let an ATF agent find out you did that and youll be in jail. No one would believe you if you said it was gift, that includes the ATF or a Prosecutor. Incase you didnt know, the ATF are in business to lock up anyone suspected of breaking firearm laws. The form 4473 clearly states youre the the sole buyer of the firearm and thats what an agent will use against you. Keep in mind, Federal Law trumps state law.
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Old May 30, 2011, 12:13 PM   #38
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Brandon.Glidden,

Please cite the U.S. Code or BATF regulation/rule/interpretation that mandates a waiting period between buying a firearm as a gift and the actual gifting of the firearm.
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Old May 30, 2011, 12:13 PM   #39
hogdogs
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Brandon, You are wrong...
Quote:
No you really cant. It wouldnt be smart to seriously give a brand new firearm to someone the same day you bought it. Regardless of your intent. No one buys a gun the same day, and then thinks to themselves about giving it away because they didnt like it.
You paint with a broad brush and narrow mind...
Quote:
It wouldnt be smart to seriously give a brand new firearm to someone the same day you bought it.
Sure it would... I wouldn't think much of giving a USED gun as a gift. So I, personally, would give a brand spankin' new gun as a gift.

Quote:
Regardless of your intent.
It is ALL ABOUT INTENT so "regardless" does not fit.

Quote:
No one buys a gun the same day, and then thinks to themselves about giving it away because they didnt like it.
I have personally done exactly this.
It is my property to do with as I wish so long as I do not violate the law.

I was actually in the process of hacking a brand new, unfired single shot 12ga NEF to 18.5 inches and a buddy of mine (VERY TIGHT BUDDY) was amazed at how straight I made the cut with my hand held hack saw. He was further amazed that I was the only person he ever witnessed using a hack saw as designed in that I push cut, lift, draw back and push stroke forward again.

I was explaining as I cut it that I was taught by my grampa to make my cuts in this manner and we talked as I finished the cut. I then de-burred the muzzle and he inspected it and when he tried to hand it back I simply said... "Keep it. It is yours... I will buy another tomorrow for my self." Heck it was $89.00 brand new and I was clearing $2k-4k a week with my dump truck operation...

When he asked why I would give him a new gun I put the time into... I told him... Cuz you can't a straight line to save yer butt and it would take you half a dozen blades... In truth... It was because he was a tight buddy who would and had put his health and well being aside to do anything to keep me safe as I would do for him. I owned this gun under 24 hours.

As for a gun I didn't like... Same deal... there are times I had the cash and a buddy didn't. None ever asked me to break the law. I bought a .357 revolver with a 3 inch barrel (or so) and just didn't like the look nor handling and wished I had waited for a 5 inch to come in rather than impulse buying...

Walked into walmart, bought a P-85 ruger and had another buddy meet me at home later that night. I gave him the revolver and all the boxes of ammo I had purchased. I just didn't like the gun and knew my buddy was short of cash and he loved the thing. Why sell to a stranger when I can give it to a TRUE friend. I owned the revolver about 36 hours i reckon.

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Old May 30, 2011, 01:08 PM   #40
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When you buy a firearm for someone else, they still have to fill out a 4473 or no?
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Old May 30, 2011, 01:24 PM   #41
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No they do not... the buyer buying from an FFL fills it out from there any private, in state swaps are void of the 4473 hassle.
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Old May 30, 2011, 02:32 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon.Glidden
When you buy a firearm for someone else, they still have to fill out a 4473 or no?
It depends on the state and the situation.

From the BATFE FAQ site: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/atf-f-4473.html

Quote:
Q: Does an unlicensed person need an ATF Form 4473 to transfer a firearm?

No. ATF Form 4473 is required only for transfers by a licensee.

[27 CFR 478.124]
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