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Old December 23, 2005, 11:36 PM   #1
Capt. Charlie
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The 4 safety rules reduex

Seems the 4 rules we all know & love have been re-written. Check out the video at the link below & choose broadband or dial up. Video is 4 min. long.

http://www.policeone.com/OfficerSafety/tips/121880/

What do you folks think?
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Old December 24, 2005, 12:32 AM   #2
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It sounds ok to me for LEO, but for non LEO "sporting" firearm use, (like teaching my young sons) I think the original 4 are better.

What did you think?
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Old December 24, 2005, 03:37 AM   #3
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woodland +1
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Old December 24, 2005, 08:56 AM   #4
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For those of you who don't feel like watching the video (ie, dialup users), here's yer new rooles:

All guns are loaded until proven otherwise.
Keep muzzle pointed in an appropriate direction.
Keep the finger off the trigger until firing.
Fire when reasonable in view of the circumstances.

Well, its nice to know that #3 met Chief Tim's requirements and wasn't changed to "keep finger off the trigger unless you think they're really bad, then its OK."

I dunno, I think it almost serves to lessen the impact of things when you add disclaimers like, "until proven otherwise." The original statement is much more...authoritve, I guess. Then, I'm not an idiot, so I can understand that "all guns are loaded" isn't exactly a truism, but more in lines as a reminder that even when you don't think its loaded, it might very well be.

Without being construed as police bashing, if this is how they have to dumb down simple things for people then we're in for a serious change in community-police relations, coz anyone who's too stupid to grasp what "be sure of your backstop" really means shouldn't be incharge of my safety with a gun.

I hold out higher hopes for the thin blue line.

gfen, often an optimist.
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Old December 24, 2005, 11:05 AM   #5
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all guns are loaded untill proven otherwise....I ''know'' I cleared it before i put it into the safe last week. it seems this dosen't reinforce behavior like clearing a weapon before you hand it to somebody, and him clearing it once he recieves it. what is the level of proof you need, I like to personally check the condition of my own weapon, and will not take somebody telling me it's clear as proof.
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Old December 24, 2005, 01:15 PM   #6
woodland
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How about this:

All guns are loaded unless the barrel is seperated from the firing mechanism.
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Old December 24, 2005, 02:19 PM   #7
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I've always used rule #1 as: Treat every gun as if it were loaded. That covers the other three rules.

As for the forth, does that pertain to 'civilians' also or is this just an LEO thing?

Not to bait or troll but if the LEO's believe that in the RW (Real World) that it's up to the officer to make the judgement, and an innocent is hurt or God forbid killed, will that hold for the CCW 'civilian' also or will it become a double standard?

As for rule #3, it's good to know that it wasn't changed (keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire). Most of the ND's that I've read about, here and other boards, this rule is the most broken and thus the ND occurs.

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Old December 24, 2005, 03:13 PM   #8
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The 4 rules of gun safety gone PC.
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Old December 24, 2005, 03:23 PM   #9
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Tell rule 1 to the cadet that took one to the chest by an instructor using a real firearm during training last year. i'll stick with Mr. Coopers versions, thank you.

Thats all I have to say about this.
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Old December 24, 2005, 04:08 PM   #10
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I don't like the revised rules.

They are harder to remember. The revisions seem to be based merely on semantics. The revised Rule No. 1 is especially silly.

For example:
Old rule: all guns are always loaded.
Revised rule: all guns are loaded unless proven otherwise.
Huh? I seems to me that the purpose of this rule (regardless of the version) is to make sure that a we consider every gun to be loaded; to never presume that a gun is unloaded; and to get us into the habit of checking a gun to ensure that it is unloaded each time that we possess it. So if you hand Fremmer your pistol, and Fremmer fails to check the gun to ensure that it is unloaded, pulls the trigger, and blows a hole through through the wall, what is the difference between violating the old rule vrs. the new rule? Either way, Fremmer failed to consider the pistol loaded; presumed that the gun was unloaded; and failed to check the pistol himself after you handed it to him to ensure that the pistol was unloaded before he ruined your wall.

Contrary to popular belief, Fremmer is smart enough to realize that the wording of the old version of Rule No. 1 cannot be used as a basis for refusing to clean your Glock.
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Old December 24, 2005, 04:11 PM   #11
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How about rule #5?

Don't be a jack-azz


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Old December 24, 2005, 04:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
What did you think?
Me? I think the chief's spent way too much time reading legal briefs .

Seriously, I think it's a slap in the face to cops everywhere. It's saying that most cops aren't able to interpret the original four with a modicum of common sense.
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Old December 29, 2005, 03:20 PM   #13
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As with most of you Im very leery about shooting with just anyone. Out of all my many friends and loved ones I can count the ones Ill shoot with on one hand, ok maybe two. The biggest factor has always been a concious decision to actively abide by the four rules. Sure you can debate the semantics of of each rule but if you dont understand them you have no business handling a firearm at least not with me in the vicinity. The new rule I really dont understand is the first one. What do they want to do point unloaded guns at each other and feel safe?

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Old December 29, 2005, 03:38 PM   #14
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Loaded until proven otherwise? One person's definition of "proven" is not another's. I have seen guys drop the mag and say the gun was unloaded, forgetting to rack the slide and clear the chamber. To them, they had "proven" it was unloaded by simply removing the mag. The old rule #1 will help to address their mistake as they consider it still loaded...which it was!
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Old December 29, 2005, 03:57 PM   #15
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I DO like "Treat all guns as if they are loaded" because to some people, the original "All Guns Are Loaded" makes them think they are supposed to keep their gun loaded.

Believe me, I've had arguments. Mostly with very safe shooters who just haven't heard of Jeff Cooper.

This "new" version seems WAY too toned down for the importance of the topic. There are few more ambiguous, PC words than "appropriate".

And what happen to not pointing at anything you are not willing to destroy?

I didn't watch the video, but is it really that hard to point the gun downrange or at the sky or the ground when not aiming at a target?

The more I look at these, the more I dislike them. If they want to make their own rules, they should make more than four and let Jeff Cooper's 4 Rules stand as they are.
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Old December 29, 2005, 10:05 PM   #16
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I'm just going to stick with the original 4 rules. I don't like the modified versions.
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Old December 30, 2005, 09:20 AM   #17
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My stepfather, who taught me to shoot as a kid, was a career marine. His method on "is it loaded?" was this: he would check the weapon (which I could see him do) and hand it to me. I would then disregard the fact that I saw him check and check it myself. His attitude was that it doesn't matter what anyone says or did. You check the weapon yourself.

I'm teaching that to my sons.

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Old December 30, 2005, 01:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
My stepfather, who taught me to shoot as a kid, was a career marine. His method on "is it loaded?" was this: he would check the weapon (which I could see him do) and hand it to me. I would then disregard the fact that I saw him check and check it myself. His attitude was that it doesn't matter what anyone says or did. You check the weapon yourself.
Good advice, but to add to it, whenever I hand off a weapon to someone, I do it with the slide locked back or the cylinder open.
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Old December 30, 2005, 01:36 PM   #19
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I DO like "Treat all guns as if they are loaded" because to some people, the original "All Guns Are Loaded" makes them think they are supposed to keep their gun loaded.
I knew of a person who almost had a stroke when they read the "All Guns are Always Loaded!"(the way it is actually written) rule and thought that it meant for them to truely be loaded all the time.

I think that adding "treat" and "as if" waters down the force of the original statement.

1. ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED!
2. NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY!
3. KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON TARGET!
4.BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET!

Whats better than these?
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Old December 30, 2005, 03:33 PM   #20
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whenever I hand off a weapon to someone, I do it with the slide locked back or the cylinder open.
Yuppers!

I put myself into checking the chamber/cylinder three times. Yes, it is OCD (I do the same when I check for ALL safety factors, sometimes OCD can come in for good).

And even when I know it's not loaded, I treat it as it is. Muzzle in safe directions, finger off the trigger, knowing my "dry fire" (if safe to do so with firearm, won't hurt it), that I know my target and what is behind it.

You can say that I'm almost "mental" about the 4 rules. That maybe I pay attention to and abide with them like a religion.

I do. Just like I have the same caution and attention when using tools, power or not.

I've seen too many arms missing, feet crushed, hands (including mine) cut so deep that they required medical help, and chainsaw kickbacks that I know it takes only a split second for all this to happen.

Yet if you just follow the rules, your chances of this happening decline about 100%.

Wayne
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Old December 30, 2005, 03:34 PM   #21
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Whats better than these?
Just one thing :

Quote:
4.BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET!
And what is behind it.

Wayne
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Old December 30, 2005, 03:40 PM   #22
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Just like I have the same caution and attention when using tools, power or not.
I work around hydraulic presses, drills, and metal saws all day. I always tell the "newbies" to think about where their hands are before they press a button or step on a pedal. Had a guy(23 years old) 20' from me lose three fingers and half his right hand last year from not paying attention.
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