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Old December 3, 2005, 02:40 PM   #26
imur_huckle_berry
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Joven, you performed well, Springmom, I'm in your corner.

Me? I'm 6'2"/ 250# and too old to be in a fist fight with anyone. I will not and do not ever provoke violence, and do not and will not "take a fist to the face" before I choose to neutralize. Let your imagination determine the outcome, but that's how I stand.

I KNOW it's coming, so all ye naysayers...bring it on.
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Old December 3, 2005, 03:02 PM   #27
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springmom,

You have muscle designigration (wasting) disease also?

I've just been reading the thread up until now. Watching other people's opinions and such. I don't think they know about what this disease can do to a person, which can basically make them valunable(sp) to a 10 year old with just alittle bit of strength (not that I would shoot a 10 year old, just showing how much the disease weakens the muscles).

It amazes me how others will jump onto others when they don't know the full deal of what the other has or what their limitations. It also amazes me that they are the first to call for the recending of other peoples rights.

So now you feel yourself having to explain to those that have decided what you should do, while they don't have any idea why you said the things that you have.

Amazing.

Wayne

edited: Sorry, it's taken me an hour to post, phone calls you know.
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Old December 3, 2005, 03:13 PM   #28
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thanks, Wayne

No, the muscle degeneration comes as a result of over 10 years' use of moderate to high doses of prednisone to control lupus and Sjogren's. That also takes calcium out of the bones and makes them brittle. The arthritis is a part of the lupus, and limits my exercise and movement also.

I do what I can to stay in as good a shape as I can, including hunting. But, for example, I went out hunting the other day by myself, carrying my rifle in my hands rather than on my shoulder since I was still hunting. Today I cannot even raise my right arm because the muscles simply are useless. It takes next to nothing to rip tendons and ligaments, tear muscles (that was part of what I did to my hip) and break bones.

Thanks for your support.

Springmom
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Old December 3, 2005, 06:01 PM   #29
Garand Illusion
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Wow Springmom -- more kudos to you for refusing to be a victim even under your conditions. And for continuing to do the things you enjoy instead of giving up.

In terms of brandishing ... the Colorado law reads like this:

http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/Statutes/18-12-106.asp
(1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:

(a) He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm at another person; or

(b) Recklessly or with criminal negligence he discharges a firearm or shoots a bow and arrow; or

I believe there's a bit more to it than that, however, having to do with felony menacing. In Colorado they can consider it brandishing even if you just pull your coat back to display the weapon.

But brandishing is always tied in with agression. If you're not being the agressor and have reasonable cause to believe another is, you're not brandishing just by drawing a weapon UNLESS you proceed to point it at them or verbally threaten them with it (never threaten anyone with a gun unless you have sufficient need to use one).

And in any case ... no jury is going to take action against a woman, much less a woman with a physical disability, who takes the precaution of removing a firearm from its holster when confronted by a crazy man unless she points it at him or others. Not going to happen.
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Old December 3, 2005, 06:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
A gun is only a deterrent against rational people
+1

springmom
I just want to say that I agree that you would have been in the right due to the disparity of force in the situation so long as the weapon was not immediately visible. We all need to remember that we are not all the same and not knowing your situation I would have questioned drawing or even preparing to draw. my wife is disabled and confined to a wheelchair, I sometimes need to remind myself that a situation would be different for her than it would be for me. Sometimes we all need to stop and think and be sure we know all the facts
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Old December 4, 2005, 03:44 AM   #31
Sir William
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Springmom, Sjogrens disease? IIRC, that involves dry mouth, lack of saliva and tooth decay. I wonder if the stress of fight or flight syndrome would add so much to your physical situation to prevent issuing a verbal challenge? You would in my opinion be in fear of great bodily harm and/or loss of life. I wonder how a Quickie wheelchair bound CCW holder would combat a attacker? I have four wheelchair bound friends with CCWs. All have drawn their weapons in parking lot assaults. I cannot picture a jury not being sympathetic to a handicapped victim of assault. I was unaware of your challenges until you outlined them.
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Old December 4, 2005, 06:24 AM   #32
Glock 31
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You guys need to lay off springmom, remember she's the victim in this. Derius T, you need to remember the laws differ between states. For instance, here in New Mexico, you do not have to pursue all avenues of escape before employing deadly force. You CAN stand your ground and fight when confronted with disparity of force or other life threatening situations. No matter which state your in, just live by the three laws of using lethal force and you should be fine.

1. They must have intent. "I'm going to kill you," is a good indication of intent.
2. They must have opportunity. Being disabled not only gives the perp more than enough opportunity in this case, but also adds even more to disparity of force along with being mentally unstable or suspectedly so.
3. They must have the ability. A 6 foot man can easily crush a 4 foot woman's neck with little to no effort. This of course doesn't apply to everyone but in most cases, and not to sound sexist here, the man can usually over power the woman. That adds to ability, as does the assailant possesing a weapon.

People just use your better judgement. Springmom is still alive and not in prison so she must have done something right.
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Old December 4, 2005, 09:37 AM   #33
springmom
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thanks, guys

I'm beginning to feel badly that this issue with my response to Jovan's post has hijacked the thread. Sir William, just to clarify, I am not now in a wheelchair, although I was off and on for a number of years. I do use the little scooter carts at the grocery stores sometimes, though :barf: You are partially correct about Sjogren's: EVERY mucus membrane/moisture producing tissue is affected to a greater or lesser degree. In my case, it's "greater". Yes, it might be hard to yell, but one can usually manage some sort of yell or something to call for help, if not an articulated "Please, sir, I must ask that you leave this establishment immediately"

Jovan made his judgment at the time and he did well; he's alive, his kids and the clerk are alive, the guy did NOT go back for an AK or his homies, and we've probably beaten this dead horse into the ground. +1 to Jovan and his cool head and ability to keep things safe.

And +1 to all of you who understand that some of us have to assess situations from a different perspective.

Springmom, the wimpy gimpy choir director now off to church
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Old December 4, 2005, 10:17 AM   #34
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Back on topic and off of Springmom's back.

I think this is a perfect instance where a can of pepper spray would be just about perfect. It is very effective and it's not a crime to have it out and ready to use in case they guy would have flaked out even more.

I think anyone who carries a gun for protection shoudl carry a less than lethal alternative just in case!
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Old December 4, 2005, 11:38 AM   #35
rezmedic54
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Pepper Spray

Pepper Spray doesn't always work on people. Some have very bad reactions to it others don't have any. As part of our training for the AZ Rangers we are give the chance to see how OC spray will work on you. Some folks really flip out almost as soon as it hits them some like myself never even flinched. So to the best of my knowledge OC spray works to some point as long as you can stay away from your attacker for at least 20 to 30 seconds. But as we know 20 sec. can be a life time. So what ever you use for a less lethal weapon such as a baton (by the way it's an 8 hr. class) you need to know how to use it or it can be taken away and used on you. BE Safe Out There. Kurt

Last edited by rezmedic54; December 4, 2005 at 12:08 PM.
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Old December 4, 2005, 02:19 PM   #36
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How many forum posters does it take to change a light bulb?


1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs

27 grammar Nazis to point out spelling/grammar errors

53 to flame the spell checkers

41 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb"

6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"

27 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's

12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ

44 to ask what is a "FAQ"

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

143 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again…
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Old December 5, 2005, 12:02 AM   #37
Shot_24
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Anybody carry a small taser? Something I have thought of for alternative carry in certain situations. No small ones with darts that I know of though.
One thing that I don't think was emphasized enough though. A BG can cover fifteen feet in a split second. Would it not be prudent to at least have your hand in a "ready" position?
I forgot who made the post about not staring at the BG but I disagree completely. I would NEVER take my eyes off him. That does not mean I would be making threatening faces but to take your eyes off your opponent is allowing him the advantage.
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Old December 5, 2005, 02:14 AM   #38
Glock 31
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Rofl lmao lol and any other appropriate abbreviation for weeg's post. Pure genious and hilarious to boot.
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Old December 5, 2005, 05:55 AM   #39
Weeg
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Thanks

I forgot where I got that from.


.
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Old December 5, 2005, 12:02 PM   #40
Shot_24
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LMFAO WEEG!


Oh ya I forgot also. Spring..... HOOK EM HORNS!!!!!!!(just got back from hurst a few weeks ago and somehow "lost" 5 HOURS in Cabela's )
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Old December 5, 2005, 12:54 PM   #41
Mikeyboy
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As an ex-city boy, I have seen and dealt with a lot of crazy people. If the guy is in the store acting nuts, but not threating or hurting anyone, legally you can't even pepper spray him. You tell him to leave, call the cops and take a defensive posture until he is gone. If he is saying threatening things I would still take a defensive posture, unless he approaches you or your family. Most of these guys are verbally ranting. I have seen homeless guys on street corners, scream and yell some foul and scary stuff at people as they walk by, but they never leave the spot they are standing on, they will never get in anyone face or grab them. If They do they are a threat, if they don't they are just ranting. Pepper spraying a crazy guy is BAD NEWS, whatever drug, booze or mental illness is making them crazy, might also lessen the effect of pepper spray, and make him more angry/violent. I would only use it as a last resort. There is a video on the internet of a bunch of cops pepper spraying a Wacko with no effect to the guy. Here is a link, but be careful of the spyware.

http://www.m90.org/index.php?id=9297
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Old December 5, 2005, 02:59 PM   #42
springmom
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Wow, Shot...

...how could anybody lose 5 hours in Cabela's????

Answer: wander over to the gun stuff.

Springmom
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Old December 8, 2005, 03:10 AM   #43
aaronrkelly
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I have been carrying a gun since the first of this year.....a gun and a spare magazine. Then I picked up a decent pocketknife more for utility reasons....you know, be prepared. Then I was cussing one night when I needed a flashlight and couldnt find one - yep, got a SureFire in my pocket 24/7 now.

Then it was a month ago I read a similiar thread and thought, man some pepper spray could come in handy when lethal force isnt justified.....theres the be prepared theory kicking in again. I have some Fox Labs in my pocket.

This adds up to alot of crap to carry, but if I ever need it I will be glad I did.

Im an able bodied male subject so I would have reached in the pocket, slid the trigger on my spray over to "oh my eyes burn" mode and prepared for a spray down. Had I seen a weapon it would have been a different story. Hopefully I would have acted it out just like I say it now......you never know.



NOTE: Im not an uber-tactical mall ninja here. I wear pants with cargo pockets 99% of the time, therefore all this stuff is setting in my pocket ready if need be, Im not wearing a vest or other CCW nerd clothes.
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Old December 8, 2005, 03:37 PM   #44
westphoenix
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QUOTE = rezmedic54
"
Here in Az you can only shoot for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only you are in fear for your life or grevous body harm.
"

You can also shoot to save someone else from death or severe bodily harm.
The image below is from "Arizona Gun Owner's Guide" by Alan Korwin.
If you live in Arizona you should own this book.
http://www.gunlaws.com/agog.htm

Attached Images
File Type: jpg AZ When to Shoot.jpg (54.1 KB, 211 views)
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Old December 8, 2005, 05:01 PM   #45
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Disparity of Force

Usually you better be able to prove some disparity of force between you and an "unarmed" attacker if you are going to employ lethal force. In this case you may have had it...

The BG in this case was, as everyone viewing him appeared to believe, insane. An unarmed person who is mentally distrubed is FAR more dangerous than an unarmed person in their right mind. Given that fact I would have drawn and if he approached fired. He is obivously insane, violent, and deliberately closing on an armed individual. You would have no choice at that point I believe.
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Old December 14, 2005, 09:46 AM   #46
OneInTheChamber
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I agree with Springmom

I agree with Springmom, I would draw my weapon and hold it by my legs/side. If the guy charges he can cover 10-15 ft in under a second. Who knows, he may have drawn a knife during that time and stabbed you before you could have uncovered your weapon (assuming it is concealed), drawn, got a GOOD beat on him (remember, your in public with innocent people around, don't go rambo), and put a round or more into him to halt his attack. A gun at your side is available much faster. And if he was mentally unstable, and he gets more hostile, it's his fault. Just like what happened with the air marshall's in Miami, you can't assume in an instant whether the guy is insane and harmless or insane and lethal. HE is placing YOU in danger, you must value your own life and the lives of others over his life.

"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six".

Chase
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Old December 14, 2005, 07:33 PM   #47
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Thug vs Leo is different than Thug vs. civilian

Quote:
That just doesn't make sense. I've been in the Texas Highway Patrol for several years and have learned, that in most situations, you can talk your way out of it without having to use or threaten to use physical force. Not in every situation, but most. You still have to been on your toes and ready to react.

This statement is a little self-righteous and deprecating to Springmom. Just like I dont run yellow lights when I see a patrol car at an intersection, I am sure the loudmouth in the store would not have been souch a cocky cop hating lout had the said trooper been in there in uniform with gun on hip.

I think we can all be agreed that a common criminal will behave and react differently to a uniformed LEO with all weapons at ready that they would with meek soccer mom and nerdy joe schmo. The fact that an LEO can de-escalate a situation has little merit with civilians who cannot even expose our weapons in most places.

Being a victim too many times trying to be a hero, I would just have been ready to go for my gun, but I would not have pulled it out unless he was bearing a weapon. I would have just acted like most cowardly sheep and broke eye contact and moved my family away from the threat. If he came after me with fist and feet and started pummeling me, I would have backed into a defensive fetal position and let him beat me harshly and would not have fought back at all and then if he did not stop and I knew he wanted to kill me, only then would I have shot him. This is the only action that would be seen as appropriate in the eyes of our society and in our courts. This is exactly what I would do nowadays.

What I would have done many years ago being much younger and much more proud and caring for my fellow American and caring much about upholding my dignity as an American, I would have grabbed the lousy whoreson by the throat and told him to take his foul mouth disrepectful un-american arse out of this family place. Unfortunately we do not live in a society where that behaviour is condoned. Live, look away and let live, be it scum or scholar. So be it.
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Old December 14, 2005, 10:48 PM   #48
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I am confused when I hear someone say that they would have let them beat them while in a defensive posture. Only when you had determined it was a threat to your life would you have used deadly force? Do you have any concept of how fast dynamic situations happen? By the time you "knew" the BG wanted to kill you is too little too late.
Stop thinking so much and train how and when to deploy your weapon.
I don't want to sound harsh here but my goodness it's called split second decision for a reason.
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Old December 15, 2005, 07:33 AM   #49
DavidJBlythe
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In Alabama...

In Alabama you cannot use Deadly force in protection of personal property. At any time. Regardless of the situation. Never. You will hang for it.

Example: You leave your lawn mower in the front yard and head in to get some water. When you come back out the door, a BG has pulled over in his pickup truck and is trying to get your mower in the back. Your pistol is in a holster on your body.

The second post in this thread said you can shoot in protection of property. He would have shot and killed the BG if necessary to get his mower. In AL, you would be facing a life sentence or the death penalty. In AL, you would have to either just yell, fight (not gun fight) or just let him go with the mower.

I don't know what states allow deadly force in this case. Maybe someone who knows their state's laws can chime in here.
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Old December 15, 2005, 03:20 PM   #50
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wow ,remind me to stay clear of you ,i protect my self but you were ready to pull your gun because a man yells ,I hate cops and watchout for the NAACP.I think that maybe you are looking for a situation to come up so you can pull your gun.Unless i read your story wrong ,it sounds like you were ready to shoot a man for yelling.
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