The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 30, 2002, 10:37 AM   #1
jcoiii
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2002
Location: TN
Posts: 556
a thought on holding a BG

So I am driving along just thinking about guns and situations, I guess just some mental exercises. The question I thought of that I had no idea how to answer is this- Once the BG is subdued (say in your house) without a shooting (I know that most of the time, the guy would not be among the living, but in this case the BG is). you have told BG to stay there (however subdued), and you call the cops. You intend to hold him there until the good guys arrive. How do you do so? What if the BG decides he doesn't want to listen and gets up and tries to run? You have already made sure he is unarmed, and now he is attempting to run out of your house. Perhaps the answer is "he's still in your house, thanks for playing." What if you are on the phone with the police at the time? How about if this is not in the home, but say in a parking lot or convenience store? You get the idea. Legal answers? LEO answers? anybody?
__________________
Truth knows no political correctness.

I do not aim with my hand.......
jcoiii is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 10:52 AM   #2
gorlitsa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2001
Location: The Old Pueblo
Posts: 644
As soon as he moves, he becomes a threat again. When he's first getting up from the prone position (you DO have him flat on his face, right?) you don't know what his intentions are or where he's headed.

But if he's up and heading out the door already, and clearly not trying to harm you, shooting would be uncalled for. Just watch him and give the police good directions to where to find him.
__________________
Elizabeth
gorlitsa is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 11:10 AM   #3
Kharn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,531
If you're 100% sure he is disarmed, no longer a threat and lying on the ground, slide him a pair of cuffs and have him cuff himself to either the nearest hard object, or right wrist to left ankle (so running would be extremely hard).

Kharn
Kharn is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 12:25 PM   #4
Jeff White
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1998
Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA
Posts: 1,397
Never approach the BG and try to cuff or otherwise restrain him. For a peace officer this is the most dangerous process in making an arrest. Many people who are otherwise cooperative will absolutely go ballistic when they are restrained. Depending on how your actions play out with the states attorney, you could be adding a charge of unlawful restraint to anything else the states attorney deems appropriate.

If possible, stay in a covered and concealed position and wait for help to arrive. If the BG gets up to run, let him. If he get's up and moves toward you, then take appropriate action to defend yourself.

Jeff
Jeff White is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 01:49 PM   #5
Jay Baker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2000
Location: S.W. Idaho
Posts: 1,294
What Jeff White said! NEVER get into the BG's "kill zone," if it is at all possible. Prone him out, face away from you. Don't try and "handcuff" him either. With what? BGs practice to disarm cops when they are doing body searches and handcuffing. Some of them are very, very good at it, too.

How do you know he's disarmed?? You didn't try and search him yourself, did you??????? Don't get in his "kill zone."

Not speaking for anyone but myself, if he's proned, and begins to try and get up, I'll shoot him immediately.

I say again, don't get in the BGs "kill zone."

FWIW. J.B.
Jay Baker is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 02:28 PM   #6
Kharn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,531
By my post, I meant to supply him with the handcuffs by sliding them along the floor and having him cuff himself, with the distance between us never closing.

Kharn
Kharn is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 03:01 PM   #7
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,546
If you HAVE to approach the BG:
Order him onto the ground... face down. Order him to put his hands behind his head and interlace his fingers.
Tell him if he moves, you will have to shoot him. That isn't a threat, its a fact.
Once he is there, approach him from the side he is facing away from. Grab all his fingers together and hold them firmly like that. He wont be able to pull his hands apart. Place a knee low on his kneck, almost between his shoulder blades.
You have him pinned and immoble.
If he gets frisky, you apply pressure with your hands on his fingers, and press down on his neck. If he is still getting frisky, just freaking crush his throat... If he is that stupid, just remove him from the gene pool. Generally, if you already have him in that position, he will remain compliant... but don't count on it.
You can hold him with one hand and do a cursory pat down with the other hand.

The words of caution are wise ones... this is a risky move. Generally cops only do this if they have another officer covering. Arrest Control is a dangerous business. I have a torn rotor cuff in my right shoulder that has never and will never heal right - which I got from just doing arrest control in my police acadamy. I was hurt bad. Very badly... But I was still lucky - it could have been worse. This isn't something you play around at. It's deadly serious.
Your not just "Holding The Guy". Don't even try unless you are absolutely sure you can do it - and your ready to take that guys life if you have to. If your not - just tell the dude to run away and give a discription to the cops when they arrive.
__________________
MAD OGRE
George Hill is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 03:07 PM   #8
Jeff White
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1998
Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA
Posts: 1,397
Kharn,

I understood that. I see a couple problems with that. The first is that if you are in a questionable situation or one that could be turned into one by a clever attorney, you may be buying more trouble by restraining the poor disoriented drunk who mistakenly stumbled into your house . You've already taken control of the situation here additional actions could be viewed by the prosecutor or a private attorney in a civil suit as being over the top. You know more about the political climate where you're at then I do, so maybe it would be no problem with the prosecutor and any local judges would throw a civil suit against you out as baseless. The other problem is; if he's really unarmed, you've just armed him. Handcuffs can be pretty effective improvised weapons.

gorlitsa, Jay;

He's not really bought and paid for if he tries to get up. You don't know that he's getting up to attack you. If you were to shoot while the BG is in the process of getting up, it's going to look an awful lot like an execution. That's why I recommend keeping your distance and waiting until the BG actually moves toward you before taking additional action. The laws as they pertain to citizens arrest and how you can use force to defend your life or property are different throughout the country so I think it's best NOT to take any action that could be construed as excessive. Remember, the people who will decide if your actions were excessive, won't have the massive adreneline infusion that you just had while you successfully defended your life and home. They will make their judgement from the comfort of their office and the actual physical evidence. If it looks like you shot the BG while he was down, it's going to come out as an execution. Much better to let the BG escape then be charged with murder in the worst case or be sued civilly for wrongful death in the best case.

Jeff
Jeff White is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 03:14 PM   #9
Bacchus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2001
Posts: 259
I agree with others about not attempting to restrain the BG.

Why would you attempt to restrain the person if you're not a LEO? If BG moves toward me and presents a threat of harm/death, then I deal with it at that point. If he runs, I give police a physical description.

No more, no less.
Bacchus is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 03:15 PM   #10
Bacchus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2001
Posts: 259
I agree with others about not attempting to restrain the BG.

Why would you attempt to restrain the person if you're not a LEO?

If BG moves toward me and presents a threat of harm/death, then I take appropriate steps to protect myself. If he runs, I give police a physical description.

No more, no less.
Bacchus is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 05:51 PM   #11
STEVE M
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 1999
Location: TN. USA
Posts: 607
Great topic and replys. I would add to stay on the phone to 911 until the LEO's do arrive.
Let the BG and 911 operator know that you are armed; and that if the BG moves you will have to assume that he has reason to believe that he can overpower / disarm you. If he makes such a response you will be forced to stop him.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
I've joined the 300.
STEVE M is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 06:32 PM   #12
Sierra1
Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2002
Location: So Cal
Posts: 55
One thing to consider too is that sliding a guy handcuffs is a bad idea in that you have now armed him again. What's this? Handcuffs a weapon you say? Highly unlikely? That's what I thought too until I saw one of our trainers swing a set of chained cuffs and they went right through drywall like it was nothing, tearing a rather large hole. Remeber that that could be your head. George Hill's comments are correct in that if you are going to cuff, you need to do it yourself. It is dangerous to do so without someone covering you, but it can be done.
Sierra1 is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 09:03 PM   #13
Hemicuda
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,757
after they're subdued, a good buttstroke from the 870 oughtta keep them subdued... and if not, apply again...

ACTUALLY, it depends... but I figure if they made me ahve to subdue them, they DESERVE a lump on the noggin...

"officer, it happened in the struggle!"
__________________
Hemi.

gun and car collector.
Rare cars, and rarer guns.
Hemicuda is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 10:51 PM   #14
ATeaM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2001
Posts: 601
"What if the BG decides he doesn't want to listen and gets up and tries to run?"

Shoot at his feet and yell, "Dance SUCKA DANCE!!!".
ATeaM is offline  
Old May 1, 2002, 02:27 PM   #15
Jay Baker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2000
Location: S.W. Idaho
Posts: 1,294
I say again, stay out of the BG's "kill zone." No way would I toss the BG my handcuffs -- and I still have my personal pair of Peerless 'cuffs -- because now you've armed the guy with a deadly weapon.

I had a friend, Deputy Sheriff, who was experience on the street, but on a suspect he was starting to hook up, the suspect managed to get one hand free before the Deputy closed the second bracelet. He spun, snapped his one 'cuffed hand against the Deputy's face, cutting him badly just below the eye, and stunning him. If the Deputy's partner, standing nearby, had not reacted immediately and thumped the BG heartily with his PR 24, the injured Deputy might have been killed.

As it were, he required extensive plastic surgery and nearly lost an eye.

Nope, I won't toss any BG my 'cuffs.

FWIW. J.B.
Jay Baker is offline  
Old May 1, 2002, 11:05 PM   #16
Stalker
Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2002
Posts: 50
How about tossing the BG some flex cuffs? You know the plastic thing that we use to tie up wires and stuff but only bigger and thicker? It can't be used as a throwing device. how about that?
Stalker is offline  
Old May 1, 2002, 11:07 PM   #17
goodcatjack
Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2001
Posts: 64
interesting thread! just took five to confirm with my brother what our feeling was on this: if we're looking at the dwindling backside of a skeedaddling BG, then it's gotta be a no-shoot. but if we're looking at the front, then anything goes. the location of entrance wounds say a lot.
goodcatjack is offline  
Old May 2, 2002, 08:04 AM   #18
jimsbowies
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2002
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 332
seems to me

That this is an answer in search of a question....

In your scenario...the BG is in your house and you've managed to somehow capture him.....the only question here is WHY?

If he ain't dead or severely wounded, methinks you've failed to take appropriate steps to deal with the threat or he's really not a threat after all....maybe just the neighbor kid who is trying to steal a kiss from your daughter....
jimsbowies is offline  
Old May 2, 2002, 08:18 AM   #19
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
No way I'm getting close to a bad guy. I'm all of 5' 9", 160 lbs of mouse potato, no way I'm getting in to a wrestling match.

My goal is simply to protect my self and my wife. I can't do that if I'm dead. Getting close to a bad guy greatly increases the chances that I'll get hurt or killed. No thanks. I'll stay behind cover and order him to prone out, facing away from me. If he runs away, fine I'll let him go. If he's running away, he's not a threat to me, and if I shoot him at that point, I'd quite likely be facing a murder/manslaughter charge. In most jurisdictions, even police have very large limitations on when they can shoot a fleeing felon.

M1911
M1911 is offline  
Old May 2, 2002, 03:08 PM   #20
gryphon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,069
jimbowie,

Supposition: The BG has a knife or crow bar, you find him in the house in a room that has no escape except the entrance, that you now block when doing your house sweeping. You could be a good 20 to 25 feet away. He turns and notices you standing there and realizes that the only way he is getting out is through you, but the 6" .357 revolver is a bit intimmidating to run right at, so he surrenders. I don't know about you, but in good conscience, I wouldn't shoot someone if they surrendered.

The other scenario is that since he had a weapon in hand, you could walk right into him, shoot the bugger to oblivion and since he had a weapon, and is now deceased, you could lie to the police and say that he came at you after you told him to surrender.

If I had a choice of not taking a life, I would choose that unless the BG gave me no other option.
__________________
Your suffering will be legendary, even in HELL!!
--- PinHead, HellRaiser 2
gryphon is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13956 seconds with 8 queries