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Old February 14, 2002, 04:41 PM   #1
Lavan
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Hey, why fight at ALL?

Give in. Talk it out. Try to see it their way. Apologize. Offer to buy a beer. Sit down and talk it over. Then when he is relaxed, use a knife.

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Old February 14, 2002, 05:08 PM   #2
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Hmmm, think that's called murder (check local listings for the appropriate felony in your area). Be careful in the shower, my guys tell me that's where you usually get it the first time.
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Old February 14, 2002, 05:29 PM   #3
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It's not murder if you have a hard time getting the gloves on.
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Old February 14, 2002, 10:29 PM   #4
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On a more serious note...

Can anyone suggest some resources for studying non-violent conflict resolution techniques? I'm referring to handling verbal abuse or other situations where de-escalation is a better option than, say, OC spray. I'm looking for something more than basic mindset and "quickly leave the area." My sister has a master's in this stuff, but I'd rather learn something that's street-proven.

I saw the book Management of Aggressive Behavior by Roland Ouellette listed at Police Bookshelf, but I don't know if it's any good.
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Old February 14, 2002, 11:32 PM   #5
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I have in my tiny library a book intitled "Verbal Judo" written by a police officer. It may prove useful when dealing with those who may be difused by verbage.
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Old February 15, 2002, 11:03 AM   #6
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Actually, the phrase, "y'know, you're probably right" is a proven psychological defuser.

Be that as it may, "Oh yeah?" sure does FEEL better.

Until the weapons come out.

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Old February 15, 2002, 11:31 AM   #7
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actually, back in the days when I was attempting to convince bar patrons that they really shouldn't fight, buying 'em a beer and sitting 'em down generally worked pretty well.

My all time favorite ended with "Now you two boys shake hands."
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Old February 15, 2002, 03:11 PM   #8
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Yes, de-escalation techniques are definitely a must-have (along with a CCW). You try to talk the BG out of doing whatever evil thing he's trying to do...but if it comes down to it, you have the ability to stop him.
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Old February 16, 2002, 03:36 AM   #9
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Very simple. Drop your trousers, give an aboriginal war cry (actually, any high pitched fanatical warbling war cry can be used), and do your best to froth at the mouth. Even if you don't froth, the contortions you will go through may have the same effect.
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Old February 16, 2002, 09:28 AM   #10
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Be nice

In my "be nicer" days, I had to take a course in verbal judo with my peace officer friends...The guy that was teaching it said that he was coming out with a book at the time called "Verbal Judo." It was a mandatory course for law enforcement folks.

I forgot what his name was...but I'm sure that's the name of the book.

Good luck.
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Old February 16, 2002, 11:15 AM   #11
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the "gecko attack" usually works well to fend off anyone who wants to attack you, watch how geckos fight, you throw your arms up in the air and flail them while sticking your chest out, then run bowlegged at your assailant as fast as you can, most people will not fight someone crazier than they are.

another one that works well is to tell your attacker that you're once you've knocked him out you're going to have your way with his posterior, most people won't want to fight knowing that there's any chance that sort of thing could happen.

biting works well too
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Old February 17, 2002, 03:16 PM   #12
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Ever see Mel Gibson in the christmas tree lot with the drug dealers in Lethal Weapon?
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Old May 2, 2002, 09:27 AM   #13
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sometimes people piss you off so bad
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Old May 2, 2002, 10:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
...do your best to froth at the mouth.
Borf: The other guy's fear of rabies will most likely get you killed on the spot.
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Old May 2, 2002, 11:56 AM   #15
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Do some research on "use of force continuum" or some derivation of that. The generic government model goes like this:

1) presence
2) verbal
3) OC
4) soft hands
5) hard hands
6) impact weapons
7 deadly force

Instead of a progressive escalation, I prefer to think of being in the middle of a wheel, with the spokes pointing outward (in random order) At the end of each spoke is one of the above choices. You then have a choice of going to the action that is an appropriate response. In other words, it's not necessary to go to verbal de-escalation if deadly force is needed while at the same time, using impact weapons when only OC is needed would create a problem. It should be pointed out that private citizens are "generally" only allowed to use an amount of force equal to the threat while LEO are usually allowed to use that level +1.

Bottom line is that we all need to have a variety of methods at our disposal to deal with confrontations and in reality, deadly force is the least favorable method. The old adage, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" comes to mind.
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Old May 2, 2002, 12:07 PM   #16
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Quick question

Lavan,
If you haven't had this happen to you, please put yourself in my shoes or my wife's shoes (hmmm, maybe not her shoes...anyway)or other folk's position where you have had yourself being directly threatened by a person or persons' holding a gun on you with the knowledge that at any moment that person has the power to take your life or the life of your loved one and if you have already given up then you have more or less forteited your life. You're dependent on the good wishes of the BG's.
Let's say, you can accept that and they want more after you have completely complied....what if now they say they are going to rape your wife in front of you or take her away into another room so that they could do anything they want. How about if it was your daughter? How about if it was you?
Where do you draw the line?

All of those situations that I have mentioned? I personally have experienced except for the last one. I do know that my friend is still having problems with that one. (He was raped and sodomized by two of the BG's)
Another friend? He was killed after he had submitted and gave up his money. Just out of pure meanness.

There are times that I have complied and gave up the money, but I stayed ready for an attempt on me. Sometimes they walked away, other times, they made a stab at it (pun intended) They figured you had your guard down and they didn't want witnesses.

All I'm saying, Lavan, it's your life. You can try to prevent your own murder or injury or you can give it up without trying. It's your call.
Me? A long time ago, I have decided not to go quietly into the night.

Of course, if you are talking about submitting first as a tactic to get the BG to relax, then you can counterattack....that's a different subject.
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Old May 2, 2002, 03:16 PM   #17
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The first line of defense is to be in Condition Yellow. If you have time to see an attack developing, you can formulate an appropriate response.

If, therefore you see an attack developing, or conditions for the assault are favorable, the first response should be to go somewhere else. As soon as possible.

There might, however, be times when you CAN'T run. What then?

First, channelize the approach. Loosely translated, this means to have the wall at your back. Make sure that you can't be blindsided.

Next, establish mentally your FPL. This means final protective line. In the military, this is the line your pour your defensive fire down as you prepare to get out of your position under fire.

In this instance, it means to establish the distance at which you will have your weapon at the ready, and where you have made the decision to shoot. And no, it's NOT seven yards. Even before that distance, they should be under gunpoint.

For a knife, bludgeon or other contact weapon, the distance should be at least 15 yards. For a gun, if they have it in their hand, and they are close enough for you to see that it's a gun.

Now, where does verbal judo come in?

This is where you are trying to talk your way out of a fight. But, verbal judo is really just the spoken manifestation of your presence. And, let's face it--if you are projecting the aura or demeanor of a sheep, you are much more likely to be attacked.

Remember the ounce of prevention--don't go into places where you might be involved in a fight. Don't get into piddling contests with people. If a disagreement turns into an argument, that's when you walk away.

"So, Mr. wise-guy, what if you HAVE to fight", you might ask.

1. Leave the threats for somewhere and someone else. Things you don't want to say are things like, "I'll hurt you"; "I'll kill you", "You don't wan't to screw with me", etc.

2. Make sure you achieve eye contact--steady eye contact. I have found that focusing on one pupil of the other's eye can be intimidating. But, MAKE SURE THAT THE HANDS THAT CAN KILL YOU ARE VISIBLE AT ALL TIMES.

3. Deliver your spoken in straight, emphatic tones. No, don't be a drill sergeant, and don't posture.

4. Radiate assurance and self confidence. The unspoken words and the physical presentation are what works for you here.

5. What has actually worked for me is this: "Stop. Leave me alone; I have nothing you want. Stay where you are--I'm leaving now." Then, a slow, observant retreat with their hands in sight.

6. Depending on the subject's demeanor, and number thereof, it might actually help to either:

a. Have your weapon in hand, in a pocket, or

b. Have your weapon about 1/4 free of the holster.

If you feel that you can talk your way out of a situation with a less menacing posture, that's good. Whatever works.

However, remember that it will only work if the BG gets the impression that they have backed a really big sharptoothed curly wolf into a corner, and that it would be a really good idea to NOT screw with him, but to let him go.
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Old May 3, 2002, 04:17 AM   #18
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To look at it another way, the vast majority of situations that martial arts (or combatives, as the latest rage goes) techniques purport to address can better be addressed by running away like a bat out of hell or saying "Excuse me. I'm sorry, you are right" for most civilians.

But then again, to admit that would ruin 99% of the martial arts s businesses out there that teach "combat," "deadly," "street-effective" and a host of other superlative adjectives and nouns.

This is not to say that such training is useless - only that the vast majority of them cater to myths and warrior-prince (or -princess, of late) fantasies.

Yes there are circumstances when you can't run away or apologize your way out, but such situations are surprisingly rare if one is conscientious about controlling one's temper.

Powderman:
Quote:
However, remember that it will only work if the BG gets the impression that they have backed a really big sharptoothed curly wolf into a corner, and that it would be a really good idea to NOT screw with him, but to let him go.
Some good points in your post. "I'm armed with a shotgun, and I WILL use it if you don't LEAVE NOW!" seems to elicit "Oh, ****! Take it easy, man, I'm leaving now" response more often than not. The vast majority of criminals are cowards who seek easy prey - they do move on to safer patches when confronted with somone who does not seem like one.

Psychologically disturbed individuals or those on mind-altering substances are another story (can't argue "logic" with those).

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Old May 3, 2002, 08:51 AM   #19
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Especially cowards (read: criminals/punks, etc.) who confront others while in a group.

Again, Condition Yellow applies. Use your good common sense, and--hey, believe me, this works very well--if you stay away from where the trouble is, the trouble won't find you.

Too many "schools" (using the term RATHER loosely) want to pump the idea, "Hey--learn at our school! When you learn my karate/k'ung fu/ju do/escrima/whatever system, you WILL be a studly ass kicker that need fear no man!!! All taught by our high master, a 10th dan red belt from the Orient, taught by the old masters themselves!!! Within one year!!!!! GUARANTEED, or your money back!!

Oh, yeah. Try blocking a baseball bat, sport. Or, go ahead--walk in the middle of Crip territory with your flood control pants, wingtips, and cash hanging out of your pocket. You WILL exude control, believe me.

The idea that most of them pass along is that once you are a martial arts student that you can approach any fight with confidence. The question is--why approach any fight AT ALL, if you can avoid it?

No, don't be a coward. If you can't get out of it, and you must fight, turn into a werewolf. If you MUST get physical with a group, attack the leader first. Savagely, and without quarter. Take him/her out, and the others will usually flee.

Unfortunately, the REAL combat mindset--the ability to hurt badly, even fatally if needed, and the maturity to retreat whenever possible--is something you can't buy in schools for any price.

Yes, you CAN be "macho" without fighting at the drop of a hat.
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Old May 3, 2002, 09:17 AM   #20
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Extreme nonviolence scenario

Friend of mine had a great story. It helps to realize that he is one of the most compulsively social people I've ever known.

He was in a NYC subway, wearing a backpack, and this guy comes up to him and says, "Give me five dollars or I'll kill you!"

The friend contemplates ditching the backpack and running for it, but realizes he needs to buy some time. So he replies, "What do you need it for?"

"I gotta get OUT of this f***ing place!"

"What's the matter?"

The mugger proceeds to describe his troubles, and the conversation goes back and forth.

Friend finally says, "Look. I've got three dollars. You take two of them and get on the bus."

"No, I don't want your money, man!"

In the end, the friend actually winds up FORCING two bucks on the mugger!

Most people could never do this sort of verbal jiujitsu, but he got away with it!

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Old May 3, 2002, 12:59 PM   #21
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LaSur

LaSur, there’s a world of difference between having some options to diffuse potentially violent situations and simply ‘giving up without a fight’. Sounds like you’ve been faced with some horrible incidents, but we cannot simply come out shooting whenever we think there MIGHT be violence. You ask where we should draw the line. Excellent question, and one each of us must consider before push comes to shove. Please do keep in mind, though, that we have to survive two fights, the first violent encounter, and then the legal and emotional aftermath. If we are forced to kill someone who is threatening us, then our actions leading up to that point will be scrutinized very closely. Having attempted to diffuse the situation should stand one in good stead.
I think you’re coming down kind of hard on Levan. It sounds to me like he’s trying to explore all options. I don’t see his question as being indicative of ‘giving up’ at all. His thoughts seem prudent to me. If / when I’m faced with a verbal altercation, I’ll try my best to diffuse it. In my experience, it can usually be done. If things escalate, I can respond accordingly, up to ‘front site, trigger press, repeat as necessary’
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Old May 3, 2002, 05:19 PM   #22
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Powderman:
Quote:
Unfortunately, the REAL combat mindset--the ability to hurt badly, even fatally if needed, and the maturity to retreat whenever possible--is something you can't buy in schools for any price.
Outstanding sentence! Can I use that?

I especially like the last part - "the maturity to retreat whenever possible." You are obviously an adult - not many such around nowadays.

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Old May 3, 2002, 05:44 PM   #23
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Thanks for the compliment.

I am reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies--Full Metal Jacket. (I STILL get flashbacks from watching that movie!!!)

This might be a rather loose quote:

"If your heart is not pure, you will HESITATE at the moment of truth.

"You will become DEAD Marines--and then you will be in a world of ****;

"Because Marines are NOT allowed to die without permission!"

--GySgt Hartman (F. Lee Ermey)

Incidentally, from what I understand, almost ALL of the Boot Camp dialogue from Lee Ermey was ad libbed!! After all, he had the experience of being a real Marine Drill Instructor to draw on.

However, movie or not, the saying is true without exception.

Carrying a firearm may make you feel better. Indeed, the person who carries the latest hi-cap whatever, with 3 pre-ban mags, loaded with the best and most accurate ammunition money can buy.

He or she might have tons of well paid for training from Front Sight, InSight, LFI, Thunder Ranch, Blackhawk, Gunsite, etc.

But the one thing that is missing might be the most important thing, and that is the resolve and determination to pull the trigger if needed.

Believe me, all the hardware in the world don't mean jack.

Much more dangerous than the person described above is the person who may carry just a Colt Detective Special, or maybe a Taurus .38 snub--or maybe even a Colt Gov't Model mil surp, without the bells and whistles, who is READY, WILLING, and ABLE to cut loose without hesitation. From Dune: "Fear is the mind killer". And yes, hesitation kills.

To all who read this, I posit this question:

Are you ready? REALLY ready?

Can you stomach another human being, crying for his mom, as he lays there on the ground to your front, bleeding his life away?

How about the guy who just threatened your life moments before with a weapon, laying there in agonal reflex, blowing his lungs through his mouth from the double tap you just dealt?

Maybe a teenager, with half their head gone from the impact of two .45 hollowpoints.

Or the home invader with their head totally avulsed from the full charge of 00 Buck you just hit him with?

God forbid, what if you have to shoot a WOMAN??

Think about it long and hard, my friends. THAT is what you buy into when you carry concealed. That is what you are prepared to deal out. Death, in all its horrid, bloody majesty.

If you choose to carry, then fine. Know the potential. Prepare for it.

On the other hand, what if YOU are the one shot?

Can you keep up the fight? Can you respond through grevious injury? Remember SA Edmund Mireles, from the Miami Shootout. His right arm was almost TOTALLY blown away from the close range impact of 5.56 rounds.

Yet, he was the one who finally dealt the killing shots to those who tried to kill him.

Get into the groove, folks. Develop the REAL combat mindset.

And again, above all--know that walking away is the better choice, even after minor injury. At whatever price there is to your dignity or pride.

Good luck, stay safe, and God bless.
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Old May 3, 2002, 07:23 PM   #24
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Another element of this "combat" mindset, I would think, is the ability to (what I call) "externalize" pain - that is, feeling pain, yet so remotely (as if it is outside your body, or more accurately, outside your brain) that you can appreciate it but not let it affect your resolve and determination to continue.

Pain hurts, and it breaks down everyone eventually, but one can learn to, to some extent, separate the sensation from one's mind.

Along with the ability to "pull the trigger in the moment of truth" and the maturity (and good tactical sense) to rereat where possible, I think the ability to take pain and suffering, yet continue forms the fighting mentality.

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Old May 3, 2002, 08:34 PM   #25
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Powderman

You may be right, I may have been too hard on Lavan...for that I apologize, but I wanted to bring a harsh reality to this thread that I hoped that the readers picked up on and I am not very good at saying it.

Sounds like you've seen the elephant too. What years were you in 'Nam?

Skorzeny states it better than I can. When caught off guard, you use whatever you can to buy time so that you either have the best advantage that you can to fight or run. (or if you can, leave peacefully without fighting)

The best defense is not to be there...if you can see it coming.

In regards to Lavan's thread, it is better to verbally de escalate the situation before it can get to the point where you have to fight. (if you can) or submit to the BG and look for an opening. Then the BG already has an advantage.

In the toolies, we learned that a good (longer lived) soldier learned when to fight, when to bugout, and when to do other tactical things. In civilian life, we have to consider more options because of other factors (civil lawsuit, etc., etc.)

Hope that was more related to Lavan's thread. Peace, brother.
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