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Old March 30, 2002, 07:23 AM   #26
BamBam-31
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Boris_01, with all due respect, I must agree with the previous poster that said if you hesitate you're just another victim with a gun.

There is undeniable truth to your questions about legality, safety, morality, religion, etc. Many of these questions cannot be answered until the circumstance actually presents itself. Some, however, can be answered beforehand. Actually, they need to be answered beforehand. Most importantly, The Plainsman's original "Can you pull the trigger?" question.

It's a question about conviction, not clairvoyance or epistemology. To know that you can pull the trigger means that you have the conviction that you will, if necessary, take a life to save a life. That you can know. You just have to ask yourself.

Get that one out of the way, because it's a big one. Like you said, a million things might be going through your mind in a self-defense situation. One less means less hesitation.

To the previous posters who have pulled the trigger, thanks for sharing your insight.
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Old March 30, 2002, 02:07 PM   #27
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Kung, how can you be 100% sure about your conviction unless it has been tested? You can't. We are human. Not machines.
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Old March 30, 2002, 03:06 PM   #28
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(If this is within your moral code) Are you certain you'll be faithful to your wife? Are you certain you'll never let your kids go hungry if there's any conceivable way to avoid it? I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that I will put my body between my siblings and any threat, if that is my only option. Making the decision to pull the trigger if circumstances warrant is something only you can decide, and the rest of us talking about how you need to be converted will never take the place of you taking the necessary action. Just make up your mind, lay down or take up your arms, train well, live peaceably, and get on with your life.
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Old March 31, 2002, 02:06 AM   #29
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Boris_01, if I were to wake up one night and discover that some burglar had broken into my home and was in the process of harming a family member, I will shoot him dead. Of this, I am 100% certain, not 99.99% certain, not "pretty much" certain, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT certain, just like the burglar would be 100% dead.

This I know without it ever being tested. This I know because I am a human being and not a machine. I will defend me and mine. I have already made the decision.

No offense, but maybe it's your own uncertainty about your own convictions that leads you to think others should think the same. I, for one, do not, and from the sounds of it, nor do many of the other posters. They, too, have already decided that they will pull the trigger.

Again, it's a choice only you can make, and there's no right or wrong choice. Only thing is, if you find that you're not 100% certain (this ain't horseshoes), then don't arm yourself. You'll only end up arming the bad guys.

I think you gotta do a gut check, bro. Not for us. We're just a bunch of faceless names on your computer. You gotta do it for you and yours. I hope it all works out for the best.
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Old March 31, 2002, 04:20 AM   #30
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I carry a pistol every day of my life. So does my brother. We work in a family business and we live as constantly in condition yellow as possible, which means we think daily in terms of protecting our parents, as well as ourselves. I know I'm not speaking for my brother, but for my part, it makes me sad, sometimes. I remember what it used to be like not to know what I now know about the world and the people in it. But that's just the way things are, when you get past childhood. It's something some people have never learned (anti-s, for example.)

Thank god Erick pointed out the difference between black and white issues and those in the grey areas in between; I think most of life happens between those two extremes. I think life is made up of lots of small decisions made over time, over and over. But I believe I've made it pretty simple for myself, i.e. if I see a weapon, I drop the threat etc etc. Better to be judged by twelve and so on in that vein. But while it still makes me sad when I think about it, it's nowhere near regret, or doubt, or hesitation, or lack of resolve. You could call it duty to yourself or your family or anything you like, you could couch it in macho terms, I really don't care, but in the end it's just another [email protected] thing life throws at you that you have to do. That's all.

I don't want to kill, but I'm willing to do it if I have to. Pity is not the same as reluctance, in my book.

Was this always such a hard question to answer? Was it like this before this Modern Age of feelings and litigiousness? I don't think so.
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Old March 31, 2002, 06:48 AM   #31
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Kung. In none of my posts have I directed my comments that someone would not pull the trigger. I'm just trying to get people to realize that the law of probabilities is never 100% when it comes to human behaviour. It is not an attack against anyones manhood. Just people too macho or dense ( one or the other or both) to admit or acknowlege it. It's easy to do behind the safety of the computer screen. You can not see how someone's eyes avoid contact or how they submit through their body language. And be carefull. Do not question my resolve about wether I could pull the trigger. I'm just as sure as anyone else who has not been in the situation, that I would pull the trigger. I do not question myself. Have no reason to question myself. And you would not question my resolve if you were not behind your safe computer screen and I were able to look you eye to eye. So do not direct any agressive comments at me personally. AND DEFINITELY DO NOT IMPLY THAT I SHOULD NOT OWN OR CARRY A GUN. AS LONG AS I LIVE IN THE LAND OF THE FREE AND WE HAVE THE SECOND AMMENDMENT, I WILL OWN AND CARRY A GUN. PERIOD. Now I will try to explain this one more time. I'm not questioning someones confidence or wether they are convinced that they WOULD pull the trigger. I'm trying to point out that the law of probabilities when it comes to human behaviour is never 100%.
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Old March 31, 2002, 08:12 AM   #32
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Hey Boris_01.

Maybe I misread your previous posts. If I have offended in any way, it was without intent, and I do apologize. I am glad for you that you have the conviction necessary for using a gun in a self-defense situation. And I understand your point about human nature not being 100% predictable. Too true.

But I think the direction of this thread is not so much the predictability of human nature as it is about the mindset necessary to pull the trigger, no? Maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
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Old March 31, 2002, 11:11 PM   #33
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Funny how sixty-some years can go by so fast. I grew up on stories of lawmen and outlaws and what I guess you could call "necessary killin'". I've always tried to generally avoid situations where I'd have to drop the hammer on somebody, and so far I've been successful.

But somehow there's just no doubt in my mind as to what I'd do were gratuitous deadly force offered against me, and it seems like it's always been that way. Seems to me that staying alive is just part of living.

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Old April 2, 2002, 01:23 AM   #34
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I was asked "how it felt to shoot someone"? I think they expected a macho or heroic answer!!! My answer was that it felt like I was saving my life! No lights flashed!!!! No comets in the sky!! Just me saving my life!!! I don't feel like a hero. I feel like I did what I had to do! I was lucky, my gun misfired and I didn't kill him! I did stop him or I wouldn't be writting this!
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Old April 7, 2002, 12:32 AM   #35
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I completely agree with Boris. I had an argument with my friend about this in a war scenario after watching Saving Private Ryan.
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Old April 7, 2002, 09:32 PM   #36
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I could and would pull the trigger. It's easy to say that without ever having been in the situation, but I really do feel that I could and would pull the trigger if the situation was life threatening to myself or an innocent bystander. If there is any doubt, you shouldn't carry a gun, you just might end up arming a BG. And I carry a gun, so I could and would pull the trigger.
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Old April 8, 2002, 08:47 PM   #37
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Yes.
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Old April 9, 2002, 11:14 AM   #38
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Great book...among others. i consider it a must read.
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Old April 9, 2002, 11:18 AM   #39
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as to the question......I answered that one when I got my CCW. I am prepared to defend myself or my family, and if put into a situation where I would have to draw my weapon, I would address and neutralize the threat, and deal wth the ancillary issues when appropriate.
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Old April 10, 2002, 07:39 AM   #40
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You better believe it. I'm part of the quake generation

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Old April 14, 2002, 07:26 PM   #41
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I have............
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Old April 14, 2002, 08:33 PM   #42
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Mannlicher:

What was the situation, and what was the outcome?
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Old April 15, 2002, 11:28 PM   #43
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Boris,
I don't like posting to threads when there are so many people already responding because it gets redundant. But I thought the following scenario might clear something up...

Scenario:
If you and your family were starving to death and you had one round left in your rifle, a bigass deer steps out at 20 yards, clear shooting lane, no way to miss.. would you shoot it?

It's an easily answered question for me because I have no problem killing an animal(or anything for that matter), even the first time there was never a question... But for you it might be different.. You might say yeah but thats just a deer... Truth is, to most people who have thought it over, there is no difference.. You better believe these people when they say they would pull the trigger 100%. They have already thought through the things that may hold someone back from doing it, and they have decided. Where I come from your life isn't worth as much as your car so it's not hard shooting some scumbag that pulls a gun/knife/whatever potential threat... Fact is man, this isn't as big a deal to some people as it is to you.. its just like any other decision that has to be made.. some you contend with, some you don't... Hell I ate dinner with a buddy about an hour after he killed his first dude, he said he wished he could go back 10-8 cause he was gonna be bored at home. There is a million ways to look at it..

And by the way, I understand what you are saying, I don't buy it.. I dont think probability has anything to do with it.. I can't assure you that the sun will rise tomorrow.. but I can assure you that I will shoot you if I need to.. Just remember that the people down the street might kill you for $20, or a Black & Mild(I hate cigars).. They're not thinking it over like you are..
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Old April 16, 2002, 09:07 AM   #44
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Having served with 7th Marines in the Persian Gulf and Somalia, I can say that yes I can pull the trigger.

'nuff said.
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Old April 16, 2002, 01:12 PM   #45
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Quote:
Here is my point for all of those who say that you must know or must be confindent or must believe that you can pull the trigger or else you don't need to be carrying a firearm. You cannot know 100% that you can pull the trigger until you 100% HAVE pulled the trigger. Sure I feel that I COULD, WOULD and WILL. But I don't 100% know that until I PULL the trigger. I'm not Miss Cleo. I cannot predict the future. Only when I pull the trigger and hear BOOM! Will I know for 100% sure that I could. Does not mean I doubt myself. I'm as confident as the next guy. I'm just honest.
I disagree. For instance I can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that baring things outside my control (i.e. a stronger force than I) I am going to type the letter “a”. A. I know this because I know that I have decided that I am going to. There is no clairvoyance, divination, or prophetic revelation, just a simple decision. It is simply knowing the “mettle of your mental”.
Quote:
You make the decision long before presented with the problem. This works for most moral issues. Black and white issues that is.
I couldn’t agree more.
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Old April 19, 2002, 02:01 AM   #46
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to be honest i dunno. to be more honest, i really don't know. right now i can say yes and feel strong about it because deep down most likely it won't happen this instant or for the next hour, day, etc. in other words, i was never in that situation with a human. i was kinda with a dog, then i realized the growl was a sound reflection into my garage (i was in the garage) from my next door neighbor's fence, so no worries one i realized that. but i would think if i was in a life and death sit. i would pull the trigger and empty the mag (12 rounds).

con: dealing with the thought that you killed a human being even tho it was a bad guy.

con: I know the police are gonna give me BS about not giving me back my gun that i rightfully own and paid for and legally used to defend my family (parents) and myself. The Constitution gives me that right and so does the preamble. but cops don't seem to look at it that way, but i can be proven wrong....might.
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Old April 23, 2002, 06:32 PM   #47
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I've been in several situations where under the laws of the state of Georgia I would have justified in firing my weapon in self defense. I've only completed drawing my weapon twice.

In every case the shoot?/no shoot decisions was clicking through my head God only knows how fast? In one situation, my assailant stopped his assault when I got off the line of attack and he realized I was drawing a handgun. He stopped and released his weapon. I stopped drawing mine.

In another, the two strangers fighting in my living room, obeyed my commands, noted the BHP in low ready and left my dwelling. I can remember my thought immediately prior to drawing my weapon:"If I draw it, I might have to use it." I drew it.

In the other situation where I drew my gun, I was walking into a stranger's house to find out where the screams were coming from. Granddaughter's boyfriend was in the process of beating the snot out of grandfather who was sitting in a chair incapable of even attempting to defend himself. I stopped that and held my BHP just to the side of the big tough guys head. I told him that if I felt the need to line up on his head I would immediately pull the trigger. I meant it. In fact, I was really hoping he'd do something stupid. But I acted as I have trained myself to act and refrained from listening to my emotions.

Will I pull the trigger? You bet. If needed. On the other hand, I've still got a chance to get through this life without causing a major injury to anyone. It's a goal of mine...I'm just not a fanatic about it.
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Old April 23, 2002, 07:55 PM   #48
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Boris,have gone back and read all the post alot of good honset answers,but to be truefull I think you question is like the old question for religon class a hunderd years ago." Is god all powerfull that he himself could biuld a rock so large he himself could not lift it". you keep talking about not knowning a 100%,I am sorry and don't mean to offend bit that is per B.S.Like others have said much better than I , It has to be yes or no,or there will never be time to answer if I should.You are correct in that the mind set of combat is different,from the street, only in that some times you can shut down on your street or at home.in combat that I experinced you never shut down.I think you are truly looking for a one stop answer,but there is none other than yes or no.if you have not faced it I hope and pray you never do,it is not an easy thing to take a human life.but as i train my troops you strapped it on and that should be the first thought in your mind every time you have a confortation. And not to knock the Christian religon. But GOD gave us the mind to save ourselfs,and IMHO,if and when I reach his AO I will await his desion good or bad.Until them BG'S beaware been there and done that,and will again if called upon
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Old April 24, 2002, 03:10 PM   #49
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Just to jump through all semantic hoops, I'm as certain as anyone can be without having already accomplished the event. I don't know the sun will rise tomorrow until it does, either, but I can get close enough to certainty for my purposes.
I've been to the point of gun out, low ready, in the middle of the night with my wife crying with fright. It turns out she'd woken up from a nightmare and thought an attacker was in the room, so there was no real threat. But when I thought there was, I wasn't worried about whether to pull the trigger. I was just trying to find the threat she was shrieking about. I was ready (meaning willing) to do whatever I had to do.
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Old April 24, 2002, 09:35 PM   #50
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I've trained and practiced and trained some more.
I hope that if SHTF, I'll fight like I've trained.
Yes I will fight to the end, just hope I never have to.
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