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Old December 12, 2005, 06:56 PM   #26
Pat Rogers
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00, I will stand by my statements, based on my experience.

Capt. Charlie, understood, and i'm outta' here.
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Old December 12, 2005, 08:02 PM   #27
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Its been said but I will say it again, none of us were there to know what really happened. Did the officer confront one suspect and another hiding shot him from consealment? Did he hesitate to shoot when he saw what in the dark may or may not have been a weapon? Did any countless number of other things happen? We do not know and none of us in the position to question this officers action until all the facts are in.

That said, when I am off duty, I AM OFF DUTY. I have heard this referrred to by other LEOs as "off duty blinders". I deal with enough crimimal activity the 12 hours I am on the job, I know those burglers will end up in handcuffs sooner rather than later. I will report crimes to the 911 dispatch like any good citizen should, and if a LIFE is in danger I will use deadly force as a last resort to pervent serious harm to myself or another person. I am not judging the actions of anyone else, any cop who is KIA is a hero to me reguardless of what actions they took.
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Old December 12, 2005, 08:11 PM   #28
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There's this nasty little gremlin out there by the name of Murphy's Law that seems to haunt law enforcement with a myriad of variations, the first, foremost, and scariest of which is "the unexpected is not always the expected". You can train until cows fly, and there's no question that it ups the odds of going home to the little lady at the end of shift, but the unpredictable, unexpected happens, none the less. Can we term it a mistake and should we? Yes on both counts. Newhall, CA, 1972, taught us that. Prior to that, it was sacrilege to even whisper that a fallen cop made a mistake. The Newhall incident sparked the movement that resulted in today's officer survival training. So we learn and we train, and we're safer... until the next variation of Murphy rears its ugly head. Something new, something not anticipated.
I don't see how Murphy's Law enters into it. I take Murphy's Law to be more aptly related to random coincidence than the result of deliberate actions taken which did not work out in a preferred way.

I am wondering what might have happened to this cop if he had shouted "Police, freeze!" from behind some sort of substantial cover, for example. Is it possible to take one in the chest even though you're shouting with your head peeking out from around a building's corner?

Others have mentioned that we should be discussing tactics, not personality, and I agree. I think it's gonna turn out that tactically, the officer should not have ventured equipped as he was to investigate a burglary in progress. The officer's defenders here will raise the strawman that if he had not rushed in unwisely to surprise two armed burglars while not wearing any protective gear, we would all be saying that he was a coward, negligent, blah blah. Why not wait until we have said such things before chastising us for it? As it stands, we're chastised for what we say AND what we have not even said. I sure wish I could win arguments so effortlessly...

I think that the best thing that could come out of this is to make some people realize that it's incongruous and silly to say that "everything was done the way you're supposed to do it, but he still got himself killed." That's logically impossible. If everything was done right, things come out the way you want them to, not the way you hope they don't ever come out.


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Old December 12, 2005, 08:29 PM   #29
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If everything was done right, things come out the way you want them to, not the way you hope they don't ever come out.
I only wish that were true, if it were, many good cops and soldiers would still be alive. But its not, none of us know everything, and anything from vehicle malfuctions to hidden BGs can kill. Murpy's law is what you could not have controlled going wrong. Again, we DON'T know what really occured in this case so we cannot discuss the officers tactics.
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Old December 15, 2005, 06:52 PM   #30
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The Officer is a hero and deserves our respect. We do need to learn from the tragic results. If you are an LEO, as I am, keep your old Body armor near your HD gun along with a flashlight. You may need it in 21st Century America. A hi-cap pistol w/ tac light or shotgun would have been handy against two perps, as well.

Also, always challenge from behind cover, if possible. You will be fighting from a fortified position.

If the bad guy flees on foot, so be it. I know progressive Dept.s are treating foot pursuits as barricaded gunmen situations when the subj gets out of sight. A fellow officer barely escaped a few 9mm rounds when he rounded a corner while in foot pursuit a few years ago.


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Old December 15, 2005, 09:34 PM   #31
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The cop was plain foolish. His 30K a year shift was done and he should have just ignored the sights and sounds as everyone of his neighbors did and just went to bed. If he did he would be alive today just like his neighbors.

He chose the naive and foolish path, probably due to his upbringing where some old fool told him to protect the innocent and the meek and to live with dignity. Instead of acting the coward and waiting for others to seek justice, this cop foolishly acted on impulse due to his ingrained set of beliefs and he got killed for it. The worst part of it all is that now that he is dead, all that will be remembered is that he was the fool cop who got himself shot by one of the Sopranos.

We have to remember we are not living in the America of our forefathers here where neighbors back each other up and appreciate us acting upon the law. There is nothing of our neighbors that is worth our lives protecting.
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Old December 15, 2005, 11:49 PM   #32
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He chose the naive and foolish path, probably due to his upbringing where some old fool told him to protect the innocent and the meek and to live with dignity. Instead of acting the coward and waiting for others to seek justice, this cop foolishly acted on impulse due to his ingrained set of beliefs and he got killed for it.
And that's a bad thing??? And what's next? Standing by while some dirtball rapes an old woman??? Laughing while someone dies in the street, crying for help?

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We have to remember we are not living in the America of our forefathers here where neighbors back each other up and appreciate us acting upon the law. There is nothing of our neighbors that is worth our lives protecting.
With an attitude like yours, WOD, we'll never relive those times, either. People are compared to sheep for more than just being passive. They also won't stand united.

You advocate every man for himself, WOD, and the wolves are sniffing out your trail. I wonder what those forefathers you mentioned would think if they were able to consider your words.
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Old December 16, 2005, 01:11 AM   #33
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Dude, I think you totally missed the guy's sarcasm.


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Old December 16, 2005, 01:49 AM   #34
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I understood WOD as making tongue in cheek commentary. I appreciated the sarcasm. Our parens did a TERRIBLE job of raising us. We stand on both feet or roll on in wheelchairs, we salute the flag, we appreciate what duty, honour and country mean and we don't understand ESL. We learned to drive on a foot started, three on the tree slant six and there was lead in the air, the walls were painted with it and our water was piped through it. Our parents just weren't aware of the damage they were doing. I guess we should form a support group, a PAC, lobby for federal funding for rehabilitation or apply for disability/SSI. Don't you know that doing the right thing is wrong? I was even a (shudder) Boy Scout!
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Old December 16, 2005, 07:38 AM   #35
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This will give you an idea about the perp !!! http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-318972c.html
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Old December 16, 2005, 08:27 AM   #36
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I think the officer should have waited for backup instead of confronting the burglers by himself. I am going to go out on a limb here and guess at what was going on in his mind. He might have thought that they would roll over and comply or simply run away. He might have just thought that is was a couple of kids causing some mischief. He might have thought that they would be gone by the time the calvary got there. We won't ever know what he was thinking. I'm sure this is every police officer's nightmare, when something completely routine goes south in a hurry.

I'm glad that he responded rather than taking the stance that he is off duty. Cops who care about their neighborhood are never "off duty". Those are the police that people love and those are the ones that people respect. It is tragic that he lost his life, but he fought valiantly and managed to return fire despite being struck in the chest by a .357 round.

Rest in Peace. I hope those scumbags die from their wounds or get the death penalty. Actually, it is better they die from their wounds so we don't have to house and feed them for 20 years or so before their number is up. They probably didn't even think twice about shooting the officer. If I was the EMT that responded to the scene, my treatment for the suspects would be pouring some salt in their wounds!
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Old December 16, 2005, 08:28 AM   #37
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By all rights, he should have had his honor guard to Valhalla
+1
Not something I expected to hear on this board, though nice to see the same sentiment that went through my mind
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Old December 16, 2005, 08:47 AM   #38
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He thought like a policeman, not like a civilian review board. Monday night quarterbacking. He knew the deal, (go back to sleep after you made the calls) go out and further investigate. Give it a brake.
I agree. Rather than risk being called an anti-police bigot again, I will simply extend my condolences to this brave man's family. I hope I am not accused of bigotry for doing that.
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Old December 16, 2005, 01:02 PM   #39
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Dude, I think you totally missed the guy's sarcasm.
It appears I did. WOD, please accept my apology if that was indeed the case .

Indifference to the suffering of others is something that has pushed my "mad" button for a long time. While in Philadelphia during my service days, I saw a man mugged and knocked to the ground in broad daylight and in the presence of numerous other people. Before we could get to him, we watched several people not only ignore him, but actually step over him!

For us to remain strong as a country, we need to be united in matters both constitutional and non. If people stood together on the streets as well as in the courtroom, I think crime would be reduced to a mere fraction of what it is and our need for defensive weaponry would be greatly diminished.
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Old December 16, 2005, 01:12 PM   #40
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what went wrong

Over dissected, If/when someone happens upon a crime in progress making split-second decissions whats supposed to go right?
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Old December 16, 2005, 01:38 PM   #41
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Sad

An abandoned house is nothing worth dying for. And even when on duty, what ever happened to waiting for back up?
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Old December 16, 2005, 04:10 PM   #42
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We need more patriots

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It appears I did. WOD, please accept my apology if that was indeed the case .

Indifference to the suffering of others is something that has pushed my "mad" button for a long time. While in Philadelphia during my service days, I saw a man mugged and knocked to the ground in broad daylight and in the presence of numerous other people. Before we could get to him, we watched several people not only ignore him, but actually step over him!

For us to remain strong as a country, we need to be united in matters both constitutional and non. If people stood together on the streets as well as in the courtroom, I think crime would be reduced to a mere fraction of what it is and our need for defensive weaponry would be greatly diminished.
No apologies required Capt. Charlie. If more Americans shared your sense of justice and valor, we would not be having this discussion about this dead cop. It saddens me when I hear that one of the few truly brave and honorable Americans that we have left has been shot dead, and all we can do is criticize him for his mistakes. The lack of moral initiative and the laws that condemn redemption has made us all very much concerned only about ourselves and thus those few men with noble blood still coursing through their veins continue to be fed to the wolves and if they live they are beaten by the very sheep that they tend.
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Old December 29, 2005, 02:29 AM   #43
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Learning from others mistakes

Double Naught understands my question:

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Geez guys, I am sorry. I was of the impression that this thread was in the Tactics and Training section of The Firing Line and not in the Martyr Memorial section. I thought this was the section where things like shootings get discussed as we are interested in knowing how such events unfold and learning from such events so that we may utilize insight gained here to apply to future events. I would have sworn the thread title included the query, "What went wrong?"
I certainly didn't intend for this thread to place some type of blame on this officer.

I'm new to shooting and simply wanted to know how this situation could have been handled differently.
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