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Old December 7, 2005, 03:55 AM   #1
czc3513
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Tactics and Training with airsoft guns

I used to play airsoft with my younger brother and his friends.
We played at the top of a hill in town untill the cops showed up and told us we couldnt play there anymore.
I got a new airsoft gun yesterday.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190339
It is co2 powered and it is semi auto unlike my old repeater.

OK to the point...
Accuracy, magazine capacity, and reloading is more realistic than paintball.
Simunitions are not readily available.
You can practice different scenarios that involve shooting at living moving targets that shoot back at you thus encouraging the use of cover.
You may even feel fear of being hit because hits from good airsoft guns hurt like hell.
I suggest that you spend up to $100 on airsoft if you are serious about tactics and training. You can get a good repeater for $30 but it would be less realistic. My new one was $60 but it was on sale for $40. I also suggest that you get a paintball mask instead of safety glasses.

Agree? Disagree?
Anyone have experience with airsoft?
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Old December 7, 2005, 07:45 AM   #2
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I whole-heartedly agree. It was the first "pistol" that was ever in my hands and I learned the 4 rules, how a semi-auto handgun works, and fire control.

I still have it and constantly use it to work on magazine changes. It has sped up my times. It also happens to be the gun I want for real when I get to start carrying......
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:02 AM   #3
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My experience has been that most airsoft players are teenage geeks with no life, who think they're specops troops.




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Old December 8, 2005, 03:52 AM   #4
czc3513
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My experience has been that most airsoft players are teenage geeks with no life, who think they're specops troops.
Most of them are teenage geeks with no life, who think they're specops troops.
But some of them could be as good with 9mm as they are with 6mm...

Is that you in the pic?
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Old December 8, 2005, 10:05 AM   #5
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Be Careful

While I own a airsoft gun and pratice with it a lot, its a cheap, toy looking clear gun, and I'm basically shooting at targets in my backyard or in my garage into a plastic storage bin (big plus over a bb gun). What scares me is a bunch of guys getting dress up , carrying airsoft weapon that look like the real thing, playing games on property they do not own. If a cop or person with a CCW unknowingly walks in on your game, someone could be shot for real. Just be careful.
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Old December 8, 2005, 11:05 AM   #6
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Maybe now is the time

I was thinking about diving into the Airsoft realm for a few carbines to train with. Any suggestions on a really good M-4?
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:25 PM   #7
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CZC, that is not me in the pic. just one I dug up online somewhere.

I've played plenty of paintball, but never had the chance to get into airsoft. I can see the allure of it though, getting to "play" with toys that look like the real thing. Especially with the AR's and SMG's.

Just be sure to keep your range priorities straight. Real-life 9mm over toy 6mm
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Old December 9, 2005, 06:00 AM   #8
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it's freacking identical to a gun and if we were in the street and that thing was pointed at me you would have been shot, my old house had tons of neighborhood kids running aroud with these things and despite many a talk with their parents they seemed to thnik it was fine for 15 year olds to be running around with gun look alikes in tactical holsters.
Quote:
What scares me is a bunch of guys getting dress up , carrying airsoft weapon that look like the real thing, playing games on property they do not own. If a cop or person with a CCW unknowingly walks in on your game, someone could be shot for real. Just be careful.
I have not yet seen an airsoft gun that is identical to a real gun.
Mine is clear plastic by the way.

IF...
I am driving down a road and I see some people with guns in the woods.
I would continue driving down the road and I would call the cops.
IF...
I am a cop.
I would call for backup, turn on my lights, stop at a reasonable distance away from them, draw my gun, get out, take cover, demand that they drop their guns, and wait for backup.
IF...
I am walking down a sidewalk an I see some people with guns in the woods.
I would take cover.
IF...
I am a reasonable distance away from them.
I would run away.
IF...
I shoot a handgun at some people that are armed with M16s, AK47s, MP5s, and UZIs...
I am stupid.
IF...
They are teenage geeks who think that they are specops troops...
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Old December 9, 2005, 08:33 AM   #9
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I am a cop.
I would call for backup, turn on my lights, stop at a reasonable distance away from them, draw my gun, get out, take cover, demand that they drop their guns, and wait for backup.
you would end up as a very dead cop if you did that. well, if they had been real guns. :barf:


for the record, i have a HK mk23 and it looks exactly like the real thing. i purchased it in okinawa japan, where there is no rules about adding orange markers to designate it as a toy.
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Old December 9, 2005, 09:24 AM   #10
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Air soft

Heck I have an MP5, M4, a Saw and a few hand guns all look and weigh like the real deal. We use them in force-on-force training as it's very hard to get a person to let you use a real gun on them. In know way is it like getting shot with a real gun but it gives you a chance to work on you tactics to see if you learned them or just think you did. It's much easier to get shot by a 6mm BB then a 9 MM. The hardest thing to get use to is when you have been trained all your life not to point a weapon at some one is to point and shoot. I have a few friends that can't do it because of this makes you wonder if the time comes will they be able to do it for real.
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Old December 9, 2005, 11:59 AM   #11
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The British used air rifles and fencing masks to train soldiers during the Malayan Emergency (or whatever it was called) during the late 1950's. On the surface it seems like a good idea although it may easily develop some bad habits that would carry over into real life, just like IPSC shooting. However, soldiers, both British and American and who knows who else, now can train with simulators that score hits and so on.

For what its worth, I'm not so sure very many things like this would be of great value to an civilian, who faces a set of problems quite different from a soldier in the field, or for that matter, even a policeman. There are other things that would be of value of a self defence nature that probably aren't covered in very many firearms classes or courses.
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Old December 9, 2005, 04:56 PM   #12
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The hardest thing to get use to is when you have been trained all your life not to point a weapon at some one is to point and shoot. I have a few friends that can't do it because of this makes you wonder if the time comes will they be able to do it for real.
i dont have to wonder, they will at the very least hesitate, and that could get them killed. teach them usmc safety rule #2: never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot. if a person is what you intend to shoot, its fine, if not, then dont point at them. its very simple
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Old December 9, 2005, 08:10 PM   #13
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On the surface it seems like a good idea although it may easily develop some bad habits that would carry over into real life,
Like the picture of MuthaGoose holding the gun in his left hand while aiming with his right eye. Sorry, no offense, but I just noticed it and found it funny. That handgun looks real to me, if someone jumps out of the bushes and point that at me, they are going to get shot. If someone jumps out with a paintball gun, that is a different story. Hey if it on your own property, or if you have it contained with posted signs or letting the cops know in advance, then I'm ok with it.
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Old December 10, 2005, 01:44 PM   #14
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Some airsoft guns are very realistic.

Airsoft is being used in training scenarios in FOF by major schools.

Airsoft scenarios not supervised and thought out become kiddie shoot-em ups. Thus, folks training on their own with friends may not be that useful as FOF.

The pellets can sting and break the skin - ouch.
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Old December 10, 2005, 03:42 PM   #15
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Mikey, that's not me in the photo. Just an example of a typical airsofter that I found on the 'net.

Sorry for the confusion . . . Just to let you know I have better shooting technique than that
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Old December 16, 2005, 10:58 PM   #16
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Airsoft is not just for teenage geeks

I've been shooting for10 years now (since i was 7 years old). I've been playing airsoft for about 4 years now. Everyone i play with is an active target shooter. Airsoft is extremely fun, it puts in you in situations that you hope to never be in with a real gun. While I'd argue it has some tactical training value, it's not much. Its just for fun. Don't bash it; anyone who bashes it has never tried it like its meant to be played (a $30 gun from big five is trash and unrealistic, my custom m4's and gas guns value up there with some of my .22's in $$$).

H&KForlife: Look at the classic army m4's. I picked one up for about $300 bucks and put about $100 into it (made it more accurate, scoped it with a red dot).

I agree that kids who goof off like idiots with them are stupid and could get shot by something a little bigger than their 6mm's plastic pellets. We play on either my property (5 acres) or my friends (also five acres). Kids who play in residential areas are fools and are asking for trouble.

I also agree a bunch of airsofters are nerds. (No offense here) but Japanese kids particulary seem to think their airsoft guns are actually "dangerous" and could be used in defense. I guess this stems from Japan not allowing any guns (even bb guns).

Besides the orange tip, my m4 is identical (even in materials) to a real steel m4. So it does hold some training value there.

Hope this helps, Chase
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Old December 16, 2005, 11:06 PM   #17
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I am a cop.
I would call for backup, turn on my lights, stop at a reasonable distance away from them, draw my gun, get out, take cover, demand that they drop their guns, and wait for backup.
Reminds of the guy in "Beverly hills cop" who does that and almost gets shot. "If you do that again I will shoot you!"

Airsoft guns are TOYS people. When I was a kid we had nerf guns.
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Old December 16, 2005, 11:19 PM   #18
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Airsoft guns are TOYS people. When I was a kid we had nerf guns
Yup, they are; but don't be too quick to sell 'em short, Blackwater. Tactical training isn't just about the weapons. In fact, it's more about cover, analyzing the situation, anticipating enemy movements, and planning counter-tactics and movement. You can do that with a real gun, airsoft, or even a straw and a bag of peas. Without damned good training and practice, practice, and more practice, a good operator will burn you with any of the above .
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Old December 16, 2005, 11:50 PM   #19
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Capt Charlie

Agreed, I have used (duty) weapons modified to shoot paintballs for FOF training and I thought it was great training. There must, however, be someone with knowlege to impart, someone to guide the exercise, or it just becomes a juvenile game with silly toys.
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Old December 17, 2005, 10:42 AM   #20
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I figured I would add a little fact here...

The movie 'Black Hawk Down'... I am sure we have ALL seen it. That movie was filmed using Tokyo Mauri M4-A1 Airsoft Rifles. The "Orange Tips" on these rifles are removable and replacable, although it is illegal to do.

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Old December 17, 2005, 12:07 PM   #21
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Agreed, I have used (duty) weapons modified to shoot paintballs for FOF training and I thought it was great training. There must, however, be someone with knowlege to impart, someone to guide the exercise, or it just becomes a juvenile game with silly toys.
Agreed as well...

I've played quite a bit of airsoft. It starts out very realistic, creeping, stalking, closing with the enemy. Moving in groups, making patrols, doing recon on the other teams positions. Trying to distinguish friend from foe in the woods, taking aim and awaiting a clear shot.

Than the first shot lets rip and it degenerates into a 3rd grade blast-o-rama and the game never returns to a hint of reality. The aimed first shot quickly gives way to correcting the visual stream of white BB's in flight. Magazine capacities run to the 500's. Guys are letting rip 2,000 BB's a game while I burn maybe 50-60. Sometimes geeks are cheating and not calling "hit."

I always had one kiddo out there threatening that if he saw someone not calling out when hit, he would load up his metal 6mm BB's and fire those. I always said, not me unless he wants to be countered with some 9mm JHP's. Ofcourse I wouldn't have done that. Luckily he never decided it was worth the legal consequences to launch 6mm metal bullets at 400-500 FPS at humans.

After several months I quit playing airsoft. Its not likely I will return.
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Old December 17, 2005, 04:25 PM   #22
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actually, black hawk down was not filmed with tokyo mauri's . Tokyo mauri's are all plastic; you must be thinking of classic army m4a1's, which have a metal body that is identical to the real thing. Trust me, I've owned both Tokyo Mauri's and Classic army airsoft guns.
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Old December 17, 2005, 05:58 PM   #23
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I dont see how "Constructive" airsoft could be bad. I used to play paintball a long time ago. I started when I was 11 and played regularly rec and tourny ball before I joint and after I joined the military when I turned 17. I am 23 now and havnt touched a paintball gun since well before I went to Iraq. However, I did it before the walmart influx of players and I never once played backyard ball. Some of the tactics I used. I did plenty of wooded training in the army but hardly any MOUT stuff. Instead the concepts were similar in rl in the desert. I was lucky enough to be over there with a few other people that actually played with me regularly. It was very interesting to say the least to see people with no MOUT experience at all.

So in whole as long as it is done right I dotn see why people should knock airsoft. However, if it is like backyard paintball and the kids are just running around in the woods trying to shoot like rambo and capping each other in the @$$ then it is useless.

I dont think the real thing ever resembles sitting and waiting for an aimed shot. Once you start shooting at each other a lot of that aiming is over. Most people dont understand how chaotic a fire fight gets. Stuff is flying everywhere, you cant hear or see anything, stuff exploding, and anything else you can imagine happening.
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Old December 17, 2005, 06:50 PM   #24
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281QC wrote
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Than the first shot lets rip and it degenerates into a 3rd grade blast-o-rama and the game never returns to a hint of reality.
This can happen to skilled & serious people as well. When I worked for USNPS in 1976, a team from Las Vegas SWAT was brought in to teach an intensive, 5-day course in officer survival. We did night & day exercises in everything from high risk entries to countering "Panther stops" (any old timers remember those?). There were no simunitions, paintball, or Airsoft back then, & we relied on real weapons with blanks.

The last day of the training, we were given an all day scenario / test involving a barricade/hostage situation. Vegas SWAT guys played the bad guys. It started out well enough. Our team started with a briefing with floor plans of the building sketched out, BG weapons estimates, etc. Then the actual tactics of deployment were discussed and assignments handed out. My assignment was a right flank forward observer. The area was heavily wooded with no approach from the rear, requiring the main body of the team to approach head on, under cover, military fashion. When I got in position, the main body advanced, and of course the SWAT guys spotted them and opened fire.

Everything was according to Hoyle up to this point, and then it went to hell in a handbasket. Instead of retreating (hostage, remember), setting up a perimeter, and attempting negotiations, our team opened fire. I tossed two smoke grenades in front of the building for cover during retreat, but it only added to the melodrama, and within minutes, the whole thing deteriorated to a combination of WWII and the OK Corral. What the hell, we had LOTS of blanks! Even the SWAT guys later said they had a blast (literally ), but the training value? Zip. Zero. Nada. The rest of the training was priceless, but admittedly, during the scenario, we were 10 yr old's playing cops & robbers.

Whether it's airsoft, paintball, or simunitions, it takes everybody involved to keep things on a serious note, both instructors and students.
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Old December 19, 2005, 10:34 PM   #25
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I have never trained with airsoft, but i have with blanks. It can reinforce things you are told. I blasted a buddy of mine once point blank with a blank. he entered a room and exited from a different door back into the hall I wuz in. we both learned a lot about teamwork / communication in a tactical sense. the lesson woulda been just as good or better if i had pegged him with 6mm plastic.
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