Advice on how to shoot sub MOA

[Machineguntony]

Ok fellas, help out a bolt gun noob.

I’m very good at shooting machine guns. That’s my main discipline.

I just started getting into bolt action shooting.

How the heck does one stay on target, to get .5 MOA at 100 yards? One would think that just the shooters’ natural heart beat would cause a slight movement in the cross hairs, and thus a shift in the POI. Thus, just the act of leaning against the rifle and pulling the trigger should be enough to change the POI ever so slightly.

Best I can get is like 1.5 MOA. I can ding steel at 750 yards all day long.

To get something like sub MOA, do you rest the gun in a shooting sled and just have minimal contact with the rifle? Do you also use a light trigger so that the squeeze of the trigger doesn’t move the gun?

I’m using a 308 cal Remington 700 SPS tactical with a Rugged Silencer and a Vortex 24x scope. Unless I’m not contacting the gun, the crosshairs always move, if even a little. Everything is stock, except the silencer. I’m shooting off a Caldwell bean bag.

[ms6852]

I just use sand bags. The key in all honesty is practice, practice, practice. In all honesty one for me one of the best ways to do this is with a 22 long rifle. By using a 22lr you get to shoot 50,100,200 times without breaking the bank. Start out with nothing less than CCI either subsonic or standard velocity. By doing this every time you get to practice proper sight alignment and memory, cheekweld, trigger control, and your breathing.

1. Proper sight alignment is something that you always need to consider and you should not forget your sight picture either, was your target a little low or high or left even though the front sight was in the picture. You always remember your sight alignment .

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qj7Xzrb9gf...scope_view.jpg
http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/23-10/Fig3-17.gif

https://cummins.us/pix/Sight-Alignment-Large.png
[url]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-
2. Cheekweld is also an important factor that most shooters will not take into consideration. When you mount a scope it should be mounted in such a fashion that you do not have to tilt your head down or up, you should not have to move your head back so that you can see the full picture of the cross hairs. One way to find out is to do this simple test. Grab your unloaded rifle close your eyes, place your rifle on your shoulder as if you were going to shoot. Now open your eyes, the scope should be aligned perfectly with your eye, if it is not and you have to tilt your head down than the mounts are to low, if you have to tilt your head up the mounts are to high, get the proper height mounts. If you have to move your head back and forth to see the full sight of your cross hairs, the scope is mounted to far forward or to far back.

3. Trigger control is a problem that I myself can have an issue with You should be able to feel the trigger move ever so lightly but you should never know when it goes off, it should be a surprise. The only method that worked for me was to dry fire my rifle constantly. Place a dime near the muzzle of the barrel and than squeeze the trigger, if the dime falls your are jerking or pulling the trigger. When you can do it 10 times in a row without the dime falling, your have begun to master your trigger control. Some people just change triggers to a lighter pull which will help tremendously but do not get it so light that the rifle goes off before you are ready. Regardless practice your dry fire with a dime on the end of the barrel.

4. Breathing is a personal thing some will say to slowly let your breath out and at the last moment squeeze the trigger. I do a little of both. But for sure do not hold your breath because you will see the crosshairs jump along with your heart beat. Slow your breathing and this will help to slow down your heart and learn to time your shots between your heartbeats.

You also need to know your rifle. Does it have a free floating barrel. If you can slip a dollar bill between the forearm and the barrel and have that dollar bill slide down to the receiver it is than free floating which is the best for accuracy. If the dollar bill catches some where before you reach the receiver you have a tight spot that when barrel gets hot it will touch that spot and create a pressure spot and reduce your accuracy.

If you do not load than buy different brands of bullets and different bullet weights to see what your rifle likes. But this is a good start for now before you get involved with barrel harmonics just practice practice practice . If you do own a 22 long rifle learn to shoot with this, everything will transfer over to the larger caliber rifle except the recoil.

[Rob228]

This is a fairly good 11 minutes of time well spent regarding how to get there. Ignore the well known "celebrity shooter" with the beard, the instructor is the real deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weBuYmnpg38

[NoSecondBest]

With 24X you're always going to be "moving". Using a lot less power would be a start. I can shoot sub moa with open sights on a good day with a couple of my guns. With a capable gun one can easily shoot sub moa with a four or six power scope. I strongly suspect your gun and load isn't capable. Have someone else who is a known good shooter shoot your outfit and see how they do. If they can't shoot it well you won't be able to either. You absolutely need to start with capable equipment before assuming it's you who's causing the problem. Once the equipment has been established follow some of the advice given above.

[MagnumWill]

As mentioned above, my biggest issue I had when I was starting to shoot groups at 200+ yards was trigger control. You don’t need an expensive trigger, but a good (and lighter) trigger really does make a mountain of difference.

But first!!!!

Before you start modifying your gun by free-floating the action, messing with the trigger, etc., buy or reload good ammo and try that first.. My aforementioned gun I was using for sub MOA shooting is a (gasp) non-free-floated Palmetto CHF 20” AR15, with a bipod on the handguard. With a good scope and a good trigger, I shot about 12 rounds of XM193 to get zeroed, and then I shot groups with IMI Razor Core ammo (77gr Sierra MatchKings), and when I first checked the 200 yard target I was right at 1.5”. Needless to say, I think i’m just going to leave it alone...

Unlike machine guns, you can invest in more expensive ammo to start.

[tobnpr]

One would think that just the shooters’ natural heart beat would cause a slight movement in the cross hairs, and thus a shift in the POI. Thus, just the act of leaning against the rifle and pulling the trigger should be enough to change the POI ever so slightly.

Respiratory pause.

https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2...reath-control/

Movement is from two sources-muscle tremor, and heartbeat.
You can control the former- rely on bone support, not muscles.
The latter can be controlled by training to a limited extent- but the trick is to shoot between heartbeats.

The hardware is most important, or you'll never know whether your shooting form and breathing control is correct. Is your rifle and ammunition capable of the TRUE .5 minute accuracy consistently? Both with, and without the can? (Suppressor will usually change POI without changing group size).

If need be, have someone with known skills drive it to see if it's up to the task.

Requires developed handloads or if you're lucky; match factory ammo might get you there, but true .5 minute accuracy is a tall order for any factory rifle. If you don't handload yet and have been shooting the "cheaper stuff", grab a box of Federal Gold Medal Match and/or Black Hills in different bullet weights- it will make a difference.

Not much chance that a factory 700 will deliver that, you might come close or it might shoot an inch or slightly more. If it doesn't consider deliver the accuracy you want with developed handloads, consider a match-grade barrel and trueing up the action.

At just 100 yards, you should usually be able to shoot at max magnification and you should, unless mirage makes visibility poor.
When shooting, visually center the reticle. Don't be concerned about chasing the "bullseye" when shooting groups. It's the size of the group, not whether you hit dead center. On a round circle, eyeball four even sized "quadrants" surrounding the center of the crosshairs, since the center is obviously covered by the crosshairs.

[OzeanJaeger]

The hardware is most important, or you'll never know whether your shooting form and breathing control is correct. Is your rifle and ammunition capable of the TRUE .5 minute accuracy consistently?

This.

At close range none of that other stuff really comes into play if you're shooting off a good rest with a good rear bag and the rifle is anchored solidly. Free recoiling or bracing depends of how you are actually going to use the rifle, and both work as long as that's the technique you use and repeat on every shot (because different technique will move your poi). @ 100yds off a rest it's the rifle, which is why there is a whole bench rest community that spends beaucoup bucks on machines that shoot for groups.

If your rifle shoots under a minute that's good enough to stretch it's legs, which it sounds like you know. I constantly see claims about the precision of rifles, some of them off the rack production rifles, on gun boards all the time. The claims are meaningless (even if true) because there's no set methodology. Is it a 2 shot group, 3, 5, 10? Most custom rifle builders guarantee 1/2 or 1/3 MOA on a five shot group. You're paying $4K for the rifle, and the disclaimer is "with the right ammunition". In my experience you only get to the potential hand loading unless you get really lucky and a rifle happens to be perfectly tuned to a store bought cartridge. Even then with the really good match grade stuff the velocity consistency is less than you can get rolling your own.

Think of it like a bicycle. A Tour De France winner is going to kick 99.99% of people's butts riding a 50lb Schwinn, but he rides an 8lb, carbon fiber bike because he's competing against that .01% that can hang with him. Would you benefit from his bike? Sure, a little, but you'll benefit a great deal more if you get in shape and loose 30lbs.

Don't expect a sporter rifle, that's designed for the cold bore shot and is prone to heat stringing, to hang with a heavy barrel target or LR rifle. Different tools for different jobs.

If you can get a rifle shooting under a minute you're good to go. More is better, but in the real world it takes a lot to start shaving fractions off @ 100 yds. As I said, this is what the bench rest community excels at, and that is an even more expensive game.

[RaySendero]

Machineguntony asked:

I’m very good at shooting machine guns. That’s my main discipline.

I just started getting into bolt action shooting.

I can ding steel at 750 yards all day long.

Good Gosh Man - You've done it just backwards from most shooters!

So...LOL,

How about getting or borrowing a 22LR
Setting up with sand bags for 25 yards,
Find a SMALL target, Learn to hold still and
shoot till you know the trigger such that
you know exactly when the rifle will fire.

[BeeShooter]

"the crosshair always move" I'm not sure what you mean. Set the rifle up. Without touching the rifle look through the scope and move your head. The crosshair will not move if the scope is setup correctly. If you are saying that you are moving the scope, then your putting too much effort into the shot. Get someone else to shoot your rifle if they can get a sub moa at 100 yrds. You then know your rifle is capable. Then I would reduce the magnification of the scope to about 10 power and try shooting at 100yards from 10x to 16x. Inexperienced shooters sometimes chase the crosshair with too much magnification. Don't try to work at it so hard. Just relax and if your rifle can shoot a .5 then let it.

[Art Eatman]

Stipulating a known and proven half-MOA rifle, okay?

The deal in large part is consistency. Hold the rifle in the same manner for each shot. Have the identical sight picture for each shot.

Heartbeat? In good health, one's rest pulse should be in the 60s. Right at one second between beats. So, press the trigger between beats. (That's what's taught at the Olympic training center.)

Minimize distractions. A quality butt pad to absorb recoil. A decent trigger that breaks cleanly and is not real stiff.

Back around 1997 I bought a like-new Ruger 77 Mk II light sporter in .223. It had what I call the "Tort liability" trigger. Six or more pound pull and draggy. On the bench, I was able to get five-shot half-MOA groups--but it wasn't easy. I installed a Timney at about three pounds and it's been sweet ever since.

[HiBC]

Improvement is often a sum of incremental changes.
Its difficult,sometimes,to assess where you will find the greatest opportunity.

Do you know anyone that is a remarkably good bench rest shooter?

I'm not trashing Remington here,but an off the shelf production rifle with off the shelf production ammo cannot be expected to be sub MOA every time.Some Remingtons exactly like yours,at least on the internet,will shoot half MOA. And some shoot over 1 MOA on their best day.Even with a very good shot. Generally I'd say .500 MOA out of a production rifle is a happy sometimes thing. Its not realistic to expect it. But you can optimize what you have.

In my world is an accurate AT-10 T. It has a 300 RSAUM top end,I believe a Badger barrel,and a 308 barrel,a Krieger. Recent load development with the 300RSAUM gave a caliper measured .800 across the outside edges of the holes. That's .500 center to center.He's using the Nosler 180 gr CustomComps
that have the pointy ends. Getting about 2850 chrono.
With the .308 top end,I've seen plenty of .4 groups...but! Same rifle scatters 300 RSAUM factory core loct ammo.
The .308 top end shoots 168 and 175 gr MK's beautifully. The Sierra155 gr Palma match bullet is world class accuracy capable.From this rifle,it shoots about 2 MOA.(Note: I make NO claim this is a ".XXX MOA rifle." I will say both the Badger and Kreiger cut rifled barrels have lived up to expectations and its fed good ammo.)
We tried a lot of powders . They make a difference. Some basic brass prep make a difference.
While 4064 and 4895 have a great rep in .308,just for fun inspect the flashholes for being centered and no "hanging chads" . Trim your brass to uniform length to make it square.Chamfer inside and outside. Just a little. Don't sharpen it.Run a nylon bore brush through the necks.

I can't describe the methods to ensure straight,concentric ammo here,but do that.
There are many bullets and loads that are recommendable.
But try 168 or 175 gr Match Kings or Nosler Custom Comps. Try Varget for powder.Work up toward max. See what shoots,but in my experience,near max works well with Varget.

I have no experience with suppressors.I understand the CAN shoot very well.I would not assume they cannot harm accuracy,too.

Harmonics,slight eccentricity,etc. Try without the can.

Re-read your scope's instructions about parallax,ocular focus,etc.

So,maybe you pick up .5 MOA with bag technique and .4 with the bullet your rifle likes(and tuning seating depth) and .2 with powder.
Dang!! You went from 1.5 MOA to .4 MOA. You get a little here,a little there. It adds up.

[OzeanJaeger]

Wise words.

[RC20]

It amounts tyo these area.

Equipment: If the gun won't shoot 1/2 MOA, then nothing you do is gong to change that. That means scope (or iron aka Peep sights), barrel, stock, trigger.

Front and rear bags and or support setup.

Cartridges: You need quality ammo, you can buy it and for some guns a plethora (308 and 6.5 Creed). Or you can reload. Oddly, many reloaders are now trying to equal the match cartridges available which is a 180 from the old days.

You: Takes a lot of work.

What I did finally was build up 3 Savage rifles with Varmint (x1) and Bull (x2) - good scopes.

The Savages have the Vermint trigger that goes to 1.5 lbs. Its not a Timney, but its better than I am.

I won't go through the gun evolutions, but that is my setup now, on a good day I can shoot sub 1/2 MOA. A bad day sub 3/4 MOA.

I can touch on 1/4 MOA once in a while. Somedays I can hit the broad side of a barn comparatively speaking.

And to make it a twist, we rebuilt my dads old 1903A3 (barrel had to be replace) got good scope mounts on it and that was it (very light stock)

With the right build rounds and barrel cool down, its a honest 1 1/4 shooter. Shade better at times, but if you can shoot that day, never worse.

And that's with a god awful trigger that has crepe, grit and other stuff.

All off bags of course.

[SA1911]

You NEED to start with a rifle capable of exceptional accuracy, and you NEED a good quality scope. Without these, you'd be wasting your time.

Buy Sako.

[TXAZ]

Best advice I received was the following: "Try not to touch the rifle".

At 1000 yards, (with a .50 BMG, on a bipod) you can see each heart beat in the scope. The trick is to decouple the rifle from your heart beat. If your heart beat is fast, 70 or more bpm, you may have a tough time shooting in between them. What you can do, is to 'backstop' the rifle with your shoulder, but don't pull it in tight. Then you lightly grip the trigger and pull.

Made a world of difference for me.

[Machineguntony]

Very good advice, gentlemen.

I guess I should have clarified this fact. I don’t think it’s the gun. I’ve shot the gun on a friends sled, where I didn’t touch the gun and just gently pulled the trigger. If I don’t contact the gun, I can shoot sub MOA groups all day long.

If the gun is on the sled, the cross hair never moves. It’s a perfectly still picture in the scope. And the result is sub MOA groups. It’s when I contact the gun, that’s when the groups open up.

I’m also asking...for all the guys who post pics of their subMOA groups, are they doing it while also shooting off a sled? Are their pics truly representative of their actual abilities, if shot without a sled?

For example, I could shoot 200 rounds on my bean bag. Out of those 200 rounds, I usually get lucky and have a group of 3 be subMOA. I could then post a pic and say, ‘guys, look at my accuracy.’ But, in reality, I was selective and it really isn’t truly representative.

Btw...

I do reload. I love it actually. It was a habit I picked up from when I was a poor college student. I have quite a large room. I haven’t purchased new ammo in years.

My bolt rifle load is 41 grains of H335, using Federal match brass fire formed in my rifles chamber, standard LR primers S&B brand, 180 grain MatchKing boolits (I literally have like 50,000 of these bc they were on sale; and they’re not seconds). COL of 2.7 inches.

With my bolt loads, I’m precise enough where I don’t think it’s the ammo. I’m guessing I just need more practice. The heartbeat timing advice is good advice.

[T. O'Heir]

A Remington 700 SPS is an entry level hunting rifle. Your's may or may not be capable of 1 MOA. 1.5 is probably as good as it'll get.
"...natural heart beat..." If you're doing it right, you can watch that happen as the reticle moves with it. Trick is to be comfortably seated with the rifle balanced on a solid rest and your non-trigger hand being tucked into the opposite arm or under the butt stock. S'one of the many things that easier to do than describe.
"...My bolt rifle load is..." If that bolt rifle is not your SPS, that's part of the issue. All rifles will shoot all ammo differently. You must work up the load for each rifle.
41 grains of H335 is the max load for a 180. You have to work up to that, not just pick it. 2.7" is too short too. Use the Max of 2.8". Suggest you lose the 180 as well. Has more recoil than a 168. Same OAL. IMR4064 is your friend as well.
Lose the suppressor too. Changes the barrel harmonics

[tobnpr]

Tony,

Are you using a bag front, and rear?
I'm a bipod shooter, but have used a front rest occasionally. Rather than a big bag up front (if that's what you're using), I'd recommend an adjustable height rest to get the forend at optimal height, same as can be done with a bipod.

For the back, are you using a tactical style beanbag that you can squeeze to fine-tune the elevation? This is really critical...you need a bag that's firm enough to hold it's shape- yet be able to make minute vertical adjustments by squeezing/relaxing. My guess- is this is where you may need an equipment change.


http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/1...-the-pros-use/

[NoSecondBest]

Shooting sub moa groups isn't even remotely difficult. In fact, with a good gun it's pretty easy. I just bought a new TC Encore in .357max with an MGM barrel. After a bit of tinkering with the forearm I'm now under an inch for five shots with select loads. Doing it with a bolt gun is really no trick...if the gun is capable. If the gun is capable you'd have to have some kind of palsy not to be able to do it off sand bags. I don't understand why you're getting so much gun movement unless you're leaning on the stock with your face while you're shooting. Raise the gun up a bit on the bags so you're not leaning over so far. Keep the cheek pressure light on the stock...almost non-existent. Lightly, very lightly grip the gun, and put the trigger in the middle of the pad of your trigger finger. It's not that hard. I suspect you have some form/technique faults and the gun is also not capable. I've been shooting for almost sixty years and this post sounds like someone who doesn't know what they're doing wrong, but defensive about the equipment they're doing it wrong with. Get someone to watch you shoot who knows how to shoot and have them critique you at the range. The last bolt gun I bought new was a Savage .243 and it shot everything under an inch with nothing done to the gun...nothing. In fact, I had some 30+ year old shells loaded up from the last .243 I owned (a Remington 700 heavy bbl) and they shot .45"-.65" five shot groups first time out. The Remington I used to own shot almost as well. If you're able to shoot sub moa off someone else's rest/sled then it's just poor technique on your part and you won't get that fixed here on the internet. Get someone to help you at the range. I had a buddy bring a gun back to me that I bedded and developed a load for. He said it shot patterns, not groups. This guy was an "expert" marksman. I met him at the range the next morning and I shot ten shots into 1.1" with his gun and loads. I told him to spend some time at the bench and learn to shoot. Like golf, skeet, handgun, etc., you learn how by doing. There's no substitute. Good luck.

[jmr40]

In addition to the above I'll add 2 other things that helps me. In order to shoot really small groups you need a SMALL aiming point. Typically at 100 yards I'll be shooting at a target with a 1" round bulls eye. It is almost impossible to keep the crosshairs centered on a 1" target at 100. I like to shoot at 1" squares and aim for one corner. Of if a round bull I'll position the crosshairs so they are just touching the top or bottom arc of the circle.

You also want the rifle zeroed so that it hits a small distance from your actual aiming point. If the POI is exactly where your POA is your 1st shot will destroy your aiming point making it harder to hit the exact same spot with later shots.

[ms6852]

Tony one more thing if you are using a bag in the front make sure that the forearm is on the bag not the barrel.

[NoSecondBest]

You also want the rifle zeroed so that it hits a small distance from your actual aiming point. If the POI is exactly where your POA is your 1st shot will destroy your aiming point making it harder to hit the exact same spot with later shots.

Yes, this too.

[Mobuck]

C O N S I S T E N C Y
This is the secret to small groups. Same hold, same trigger management, same level of contact with the rifle, same recoil attenuation. The heavier the recoil, the harder it is to handle the recoil consistently.

[TXAZ]

1 word: TRACKINGPOINT.

[cw308]

Shooting fully auto everything moves , the way you hold the weapon an press the trigger . Different ballgame . I was a M 60 gunner in the service now I shoot bench rest only . As with everything just go out and shoot , it will come , your not new to the sport.