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Old December 23, 2002, 11:40 AM   #1
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When I can't have a gun.. thinking about taking martial arts..

Well, I'm in the ROT (Republic of Taiwan) and as is such, I can't have a gun

I went to visit a studio a few times, I am thinking about taking San Shou, also called "San Da" a chinese system of mixed fighting developed by the military, basically Muay Thai punches and kicks with kung fu throw short throws and judo tosses; a mix of whatever works.

I probably will take it, they want at least a 1 year commitment, as they don't want people who will showup only for the first month..

I began to think; if I was in the states right now where I can have a CCW, would I still take this? I think the answer would be yes, because I cannot be assured I'll always have a gun on me, but my hands and feet, they are hard to leave at home or in the safe..

Is my thinking consistent with the rest of TFL's?

BTW, I'm assuming I'm not the only one that watches MMA and UFC and NHB.. right? If you don't know what those acronyms mean, you probably don't watch it..
"An unarmed society is one that's ripe for tyranny and oppression."
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Old December 23, 2002, 12:08 PM   #2
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in earlier daze, i used to study kukishin ryu, Bojitsu:

its quite amazing what afixing a lever to an opponents apendages can do for a throw

here is a book:
Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu: Bojutsu, Hanbojutsu, Tachiai
(Kukishin Martial Arts: Staff, Half-Staff, Sword)

the jo, bo and tanbo stick is a very handy technique,
staffs can be scrounged or a retractable baton could be carried

here a tactile bo:

a titanium shafted umbrella could prolly be carried anywhere

Bojitsu: (Japan/Okinawa) Meaning "art of the staff." A collective term referring to martial systems employing a bo, or long staff (over five feet in length), that developed in Japan, Okinawa, China and elsewhere. The use of the bo dates back to times of legend and is as old as man himself. In Japan hard wood was plentiful and even the poorest individual could easily arm himself. A whole arsenal of poles, staffs, spiked staffs, and long iron clubs were developed. The bo was sometimes tipped in iron and sometimes totally covered by iron. In modern times its practice is an inherent part of many styles of karate and aikido.

To the traditional samurai armed with a cherished sword, the bo was considered plebeian, a weapon of commoners. But because of its effectiveness it became necessary to understand its use, if for nothing other than defensive reasons. In Japan it's study was distinguished by its focus on techniques useful against an opponent armed with a sword or other weapon. Techniques such as blocking, parrying, striking, tripping, throwing off, off-balancing, striking and thrusting were often combined into a single movement, the most powerful of which could break a sword or shatter a bone.

The weapon has the unique advantage of having two ends, thus each successive technique with one end opens up a possible technique with the other. The skill level of a trained exponent is truly remarkable, the speed of movement blurred to the eye. As a wooden instrument, however, the bo was comparably safe compared to the sword and other bladed weapons. Thus the bo, or wooden equivalent of swords and other weapons, are often used as substitutes for actual bladed weapons practice in schools teaching weapon arts.

The bo was equally popular among commoners, priest and monks (who were denied many weapons). A shorter version of the bo, called a "jo," also became widely practiced.

The founder of one of the most effective and famous schools of bo jitsu was Muso Gonnosuke, an expert in the bo who was catapulted into prominence by his loss of a match. Using a bo in a challenge against the two sword legend Miyamoto Musashi, Gonnosuke lost but was spared his life. Gonnsouke is said to have retreated into seclusion atop Mt. Homan where he underwent years of rigid self-discipline. He meditated, fasted and underwent ritual purification out of which he received divine inspiration. This led to development of a shorter version of the bo that allowed quicker response time. He developed his own special techniques, while borrowing from both bo and sword techniques. He then challenged Musashi again, this time defeating the sword legend. Gonnouke named his style Shindo-Muso Ryu and developed technical curriculum.

The use of the bo, or staff, is so widespread that virtually every country has its own tradition. In Europe the long staff was used by peasants during the middle ages. In China the bo and other weapons were also widely practiced and often incorporated into various kung fu systems. Likewise Okinawan systems of bojitsu have their own traditions.

In the Ryukyus of which Okinawa is the largest island, bo kata are the oldest of martial arts kata dating back to Matsu Higa, the weapons (kobudo) teacher (sensei) of Takahara Peinchin. Actually oral tradition traces the use of the bo back even further, to the 1400's. And after the Japanese (Satsuma Clan) occupied Okinawa (1609), although bladed weapons were banned there is some evidence that the bo was actually allowed to flourish, or even taught, as a means of civilian defense against the possibility of Chinese invasion. Today in Okinawa the bo and other traditional weapons are taught separately, but have also been adopted by many karate systems. Since many movements of Okinawan traditional weapons duplicate or closely parallel techniques from karate, some suggest the unique character and style of karate itself was influenced by these weapons. In researching the techniques used, some authorities have noted the similarity of their bo techniques to Japanese spear techniques, something that would support the hypothesis that the Japanese Satsumura might have encouraged adoption of bo techniques based on other Japanese weapon systems.
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Old December 23, 2002, 12:48 PM   #3
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Of course, "Gun-Kata" is on my list of things to learn..
"An unarmed society is one that's ripe for tyranny and oppression."
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Old December 23, 2002, 02:09 PM   #4
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Not only might you not have your gun with you if you were in the states, some situations may dictate that you either cannot get to your firearm(not enough time, closer quarters), or that you should not use your gun.

Anything that will increase your chance of survival in a deadly situation should be considered.
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Old December 23, 2002, 07:00 PM   #5
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twoblink, San Da is a very "hard", i.e. physical, style. If taught by Chinese instructors, I would anticipate a very militaristic environment. (They don't kid around--no sarcasm, no playing grab a**--and smiles can be seen as weakness. This can be hard for some [gee, I wonder who?]).

Good stuff. Reminded me of one of my favorite instructors in Hap Ki Do, "[u]se whatever works and call it Hap Ki Do."

The problem with any pj fighting--boxing, JKR, kung fun, whatever, is that you must close with the threat. You will get hurt, if you accept this (you may have no choice) you will go far.

Kung fu should be part of gun fu. Anything that hardens your resolve will help and keep your abs buff.
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Old December 23, 2002, 07:15 PM   #6
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I went to an AC/DC concert once and couldn't take my firearms with me. Instead, I brought my daughter - 20 yr old black belt who's got about 6 inches in height on me.

If you're too old or lazy to take martial arts - raise a kid who will do it for you!
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Old December 23, 2002, 07:42 PM   #7
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I think you would be smart to take advantage of what you can do where you are. If you cannot own and carry a gun, then take the best MA training you can find locally and make it a part of your self-defense strategy.

IM(NS)HO, self-defense is a layered system consisting of situational awareness and several, if not many, possible responses depending upon the situation. Hopefully you will get back to the states sometime soon and possess some physical skills which supplement your gun-handling skills.

Good luck in whichever system you decide on. I hope you let us know how it goes.
Frosty Price

"No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai
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Old December 23, 2002, 11:53 PM   #8
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I've heard on numerous occasions that Kickboxing (Muay Thai) is the most effective form of martial art.

That type of statement tends to aggrivate people who practice more complex and technical martial arts such as Karate, Judo or Kung fu.

Case in point ( albiet very generalised ) , some time ago a group of Karate blackbelts, Judo masters and Kung fu experts travelled to Thailand to challenge the various Muay Thai champions. In every bout the Kickboxer was able to KO the non kickboxing opponent.

Two years later and still bitter about their loses and the notion that Muay Thai is the most effective art, the various Karate, Judo and Kung fu experts returned to Thailand to once again challenge the Muay Thai fighters.

End result - the non kickboxing fighters were KO'ed again.

Most likely this is because Kickboxing is simple and brutal. Muay Thai fighters generally start at a young age and become accustomed to being beaten to a pulp. Whereas when a Karate blackbelt takes a kick to the head from a Muay Thai fighter, they are unable to cope with the blow and tend to be KO'ed.
Also it doesn't take a ridiculous amount of time to become proficient in Kickboxing as opposed to the time required to become a Karate blackbelt.

And I'll never forget Adam Watt (former 3 time world kickboxing champion) telling me that when kicked in the groin to just grin and bear it......
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Old December 24, 2002, 12:57 AM   #9
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Wouldnt a big Bowie Knife be an easier solution?
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Old December 24, 2002, 01:01 AM   #10
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It's all true. The reason is, things like Karate, Judo, Kung Fu, is a system of ARTS. Muay Thai is a system of DESTRUCTION.

You go watch a TKD match, and what do you see? People trying to score points. You go to a Muay Thai match, and what do you see? People trying to destroy each other. Different sport, different mind set.

Also, the Muay Thai system has one thing no other system has; the Thai kick. All other systems kick with the pallet arc of the foot, the Muay Thai kick does not have a snap kick, but instead, has a "football punter's kick" using the shin as a baseball bat, and a full hip rotation. That's the most powerful kick there is, and the most power your body is able to generate; kicked in the thigh, your leg will go numb. It is utterly devistating.

KSFreeman, I went to the studio and checked it out. The coach has trained over 2 dozen people who've gone on to win the San Da competitions in china for their weight. The other co-instructor, is the head of SWAT in Taiwan and also the overseas trainer for the Texas SWAT. (I'm trying to get him to take me for a sneek peek at the Taiwan SWAT so I can do an article for maybe SWAT magazine). So as far as discipline , trust me when I say, they expect and demand the utmost in dicipline.

Do any of you watch UFC or Pride? That's seriously brutal stuff.. But it's safer then boxing. Boxing's the most dangerous sport.
"An unarmed society is one that's ripe for tyranny and oppression."
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Old December 24, 2002, 02:19 AM   #11
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Beats me.

Situational awareness probably got more folk out of a bad thing than anything else.

Don't be there when it happens.

Recognise that something bad's happening, or about to & just go away from it.

Lot's to be known just right there & often way overlooked.


Took a few years of sho-ta-kan.

A bare-bones Japanese karate. When you block it, you break it. Hit it, break it. Works better for a more beefy body style than I have, but still .... no loss in knowing.

Never saw anything worthwhile in anything "high-kick & flowery."

Looks good on TV.

Solid Judo background & any decent hard-style works.

Better to see, know & leave.
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Old December 24, 2002, 12:09 PM   #12
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I think you should learn a MA *because* you're going to have a gun. At least two reasons: (1) you need to be able to retain your weapon, and most MAs will help; (2) you don't want to have to escalate to gunshots if it's possible to avoid it.
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Old December 24, 2002, 09:18 PM   #13
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While I studied aikijutsu I did get to see Goju ryu karate as it was also taught at our school. A good okinawan art from what I saw.

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Old December 24, 2002, 11:22 PM   #14
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Arguing about which style is best is a lot like 9mm vs. .45 debates. Far more often it boils down to the person, their understanding of the system and how hard and realistically he or she trains than the style.

That being said, Thai boxing is a great base to build from, with emphasis on powerful natural weapons such as the knee and elbow. I'm not familiar with san soo per se, but, from what I've been told, san soo is included in all combative kung fu as it refers to free fighting.

I'm not familiar with Taipei, Twoblink, but was informed that there was was a very good Hsing Yi teacher in Tainan back when I lived in Kaohsiung.
"I shot an error into the air. It's still going...everywhere."

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Old December 24, 2002, 11:25 PM   #15
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Wouldnt a big Bowie Knife be an easier solution?
Uh.. No. A knife (like a gun) is just a tool, you have to be trained on how to use it first...

Also, things like knives require you to be arms length, not "kick length" which is about a foot or two further away.

Also, most who fight with knives but are unskilled at its use, tend to depend too much on it.
"An unarmed society is one that's ripe for tyranny and oppression."
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Old December 25, 2002, 01:13 AM   #16
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In Taiwan, you should be pursuing Shuai Chiao, Hsing I, Lohan, Pa Kua or Tai Chi Chuan. If I can ever get ahold of Jay (I've called him 3 times since you moved) or get in to visit my sifu, I can give you the contact info for either a disciple of or student of Ch'ang Dung Sheng.

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Old December 25, 2002, 09:18 AM   #17
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Don't waste your time training in any "martial art" where you don't glove up and spar.

I've trained and fought amatuer in both Muay Thai and in Savate and find this to be hands-down what you need to survive most stand-up fights (one-on-one), but you should also get a good base in groundfighting...Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for example.

That being said, training and sparring with your Bowie knife ain't bad either!
High Country Cowboys (NC)
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Old December 25, 2002, 11:38 AM   #18
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I've always believed that ALL women should study martial arts. I've studied Wing Chun and Arnis myself. It's not easy to find good Chinese styles in Boston -- everything is Tae Kwon Do McDonald heaven. Everywhere you look it's Korean Karate. I'm looking to change to Jeet Kune Do at some point. The bottom line, one should never rely on the gun and only the gun to get them out of trouble. Things have a way of turning bad quickly and it's important to train yourself with firearms and your hands and feet. The shame about women and training is they take one of these crash courses and think, "that's it." Well, it's not. It'd hard work, dedication and years of practice. You don't go to the range once and think you've got it down pat. You go, shoot, and keep going back to get better each time. The same applies to martial arts -- train, train, train so if and when the worst happens, you'll body will take over where your mind leaves off and do it's job.
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Old December 25, 2002, 11:54 AM   #19
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Martial arts

twoblink: it's not just about weaponless self defense - it's also about disciplining of the mind. Knowing how to use a weapon, whether its firearms, fists or feet and when to use them are two different things. A good instructor also trains your mind and is a spiritual instructor as well (not in a religious sense). Find a school you like and go for it.
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Old December 26, 2002, 02:40 AM   #20
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I think real competition and training is needed; otherwise, it's like just reading about a gun and never shooting it.

The Taiwanese men who like guns are great at that; they know everything about every gun; except how it feels in your hands..

I think I want to train and dicipline my body and my mind; more then just learn to fight. That's just the added bonus; and why I am choosing this vs. like say swimming with my gf (although, trust me, women in bathing suits are more attractive then sweaty guys in gi's)

But I have come to some conclusions; I really want to learn to defend myself; I would rather brandish a gun and have the perp leave; but sometimes, that's not an option..
"An unarmed society is one that's ripe for tyranny and oppression."
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Old December 26, 2002, 10:53 AM   #21
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"Arguing about which style is best is a lot like 9mm vs. .45 debates. Far more often it boils down to the person, their understanding of the system and how hard and realistically he or she trains than the style."

This analogy makes more sense to me than anything else discussed so far.
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
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Old December 26, 2002, 01:39 PM   #22
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Muay Thai, western boxing, full-contact karate, san shou, judo, and even, arguably, fencing have the advantage over "real" martial arts that they are practiced as sports. Thus they are practiced at full power in situations of high stress. I would place them in a higher position than some traditional schools where competition is rare, or over the "point" type of karate competition. However, their disadvantage is that competition fighting of whatever type does not fully, realistically model self defense. "Fighting" is a relationship that occurs between (usually) two people with a certain amount of agreement as to the rules of engagement. Sometimes formallized, as in sport fighting, and other times informal as in what's considered "cheating" in a street fight or bar room brawl. There is at least always the agreement that both parties have made the decision to be there.

Self defense, on the other hand, occurs when there is an unwelcome attack of one party by the other(s). The problem for sport fighters often occurs when they aren't able to engage in the type of fight they're trained for. They have the advantage that they're used to dealing with and delivering real power, and that is good. But there are no rules in self defense, other than the laws of the land. Also no referees, time limits, equipment, space limitations, etc.

All this to say that there isn't any particular discipline you can engage in to make you invulnerable. Studying any good martial art with an open mind and open eyes to the ways things are does elsewhere is a good thing. Styles that preach dogma are worse than religions.

I personally like the Chinese internal martial arts if they're done with an open attitude. Some T'ai Chi schools can be extremely dogmatic and sectarian, but check out some of the students of Cheng Man-Ching in Taiwan.
"Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it compromises and develops the germ of every other. As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the executive is extended ... and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people ..." - James Madison (quote by Gore Vidal)
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Old October 30, 2004, 06:15 AM   #23
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i take karate kyuku shinkai klasses where i live and it is fun and usefull.
precision is the way to success
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