Muzzleloader Questions

FirstFreedom · October 21, 2007, 07:58 PM

Just got back from the range sighting in my muzzleloader, and yep, I have questions (surprise)...

1. Do you guys *always* pop a primer-only shot to dry the barrel after every cleaning? I cleaned 4 times while at the range, and popped a primer before I began and after each cleaning before firing. Related question: during one of these primer shots, something flew out of the barrel about 5 yards, and landed on the ground, burning/glowing and smoking the whole way - made a whizzing noise too - just exactly like some kind of firework - like a mini roman candle - what the hell was THAT? How can anything of any volume like that get through the tiny flash hole?

2. Regarding fouling shots: I noticed that my groups were groups and not fliers after the fouling shot, which was a flier. My question is, do I have to put a bullet in, in order to get a fouling shot to do what it needs to do to help with accuracy - or do I have to waste a bullet in addition to powder? Dumb related question I should know the answer to: After I had it fully sighted, I cleaned and then shot 1 fouling shot to be ready for hunting next weekend. My question is, how corrosive is 777 - will leaving that 1 fouling shot gunk in there for one week cause irreparable damage to my barrel? Still a bit of a newb to BP equivalents.

3. More of a comment: Pyrodex seemed to be cleaner than Triple 7 - anyone else agree or disagree? It also seemed to be more accurate. Before I ran out of Pyrodex, I was getting sub-2" groups at 80 yards, and with 777, more like 4" groups.

4. I sighted in for 240 gr bullets (saboted), but by the time I got sighted in, I had run out of bullets. So, since I'll need some to hunt with, I decided to re-sight in with the only bullets I had left, 300 grain HPs (saboted) of the same brand. So, should hit lower at 80 yards, right? Nope, the 300s hit about 6" higher - how is this possible? Same charge - 100 gr of 777.

5. When it takes a tremendous amount of force on the bullet starter to push the bullet into the muzzle to get it started, at what point is the force so much that this is an indication of an unsafe narrowing of the bore? Or would it be impossible to manually push the bullet in, in the event the bore was so obstructed that it's unsafe?

K.A.T. · October 21, 2007, 10:22 PM

I fire a fouling shot of 50grns. of powder packed with a dry patch on top,this is in my TC hawkins(side hammer).I do this because of the way the ignition system is designed,oil can hide in the turn between the nipple and barrel.

I'm assuming you are shooting an inline with a sabot bullet,in that case I would not shoot a fouling shot.I don't think it helps a sabot load,someone correct me if I have this wrong,I don't use sabots.

I wouldn't leave my rifle with a dirty barrel for a week.Just fire the fouling shot before you go in the woods.

**Mike Irwin** · October 22, 2007, 12:19 AM

Lighter bullets often hit lower.

It's because the heavier bullet stays in the barrel longer during the initial recoil impulse.

arcticap · October 22, 2007, 03:53 AM

Quote:

1. Do you guys *always* pop a primer-only shot to dry the barrel after every cleaning? I cleaned 4 times while at the range, and popped a primer before I began and after each cleaning before firing. Related question: during one of these primer shots, something flew out of the barrel about 5 yards, and landed on the ground, burning/glowing and smoking the whole way...

I don't always pop a primer, especially for hunting. I make sure everything is clean and dry, especially the nipple. Then load and cover the muzzle.
I wonder if there was a cleaning patch still in your barrel that flamed up?

Quote:

2. Regarding fouling shots: I noticed that my groups were groups and not fliers after the fouling shot, which was a flier. My question is, do I have to put a bullet in, in order to get a fouling shot to do what it needs to do to help with accuracy....

You may not need to take a fouling shot at all if you sight in your gun for first shot accuracy out of a cold clean barrel. If you really have trouble with first shot consistency with a sabot, a very thin coating of Wonderlube/Bore Butter about 1/2 way down the top part of the barrel might help to simulate residue from a fouling shot. But not too much, only a thin coat after the sabot is loaded. If it works a fouling shot may not be necessary.

Quote:

how corrosive is 777 - will leaving that 1 fouling shot gunk in there for one week cause irreparable damage to my barrel?

It depends on how much humidity gets absorbed by the powder residue, but I'm guessing probably not.

Quote:

Pyrodex seemed to be cleaner than Triple 7 - anyone else agree or disagree? It also seemed to be more accurate. Before I ran out of Pyrodex, I was getting sub-2" groups at 80 yards, and with 777, more like 4" groups.

Pyrodex fouling might be softer, but I'm not sure that it's cleaner.
Pyrodex P seems cleaner than Pyrodex RS.
777 doesn't like to be compacted as much as Pyrodex does, and both can get erratic if not compacted consistently.

Quote:

5. When it takes a tremendous amount of force on the bullet starter to push the bullet into the muzzle to get it started, at what point is the force so much that this is an indication of an unsafe narrowing of the bore? Or would it be impossible to manually push the bullet in, in the event the bore was so obstructed that it's unsafe?

There's more fouling in the breech than at the muzzle. The trick is to know how many shots that you can load before the fouling builds up too much.
A mallet and thicker wooden dowel might help to start & ram the sabot until it's about 1/2 way or more down the barrel, but if it really gets stuck then you may end up needing to hammer it out too.
Unsafe? Only if the sabot isn't seated on the powder when it's fired.

**Mike Irwin** · October 22, 2007, 09:19 AM

"but if it really gets stuck then you may end up needing to hammer it out too."

My gunsmith in Pennsylvania would occasionally see stuck balls.

Instead of trying to remove the breech plug, he'd get as much of the powder out as he could and then he had a special fitting that allowed him to use a grease gun to hydraulically force the stuck ball out.

He said that it had never failed to remove a lodged ball.

Wild Bill Bucks · October 22, 2007, 12:12 PM

I don't think either powder is all that clean, but I'll tell you something that I tried that might surprise you. Put a SMALL amount of pyrodex on a smooth metal surface, and ignite it with a match. Then put a SMALL amount of 777 on the same surface and ignite it also. After both are ignited, take your finger and rub the Pyrodex between your finger and thumb, then do the same with the residue from the 777. You will notice an almost sandpaper grit in the Pyrodex, and the 777 will feel like a smooth face powder.
I think that the 777 lets you load more bullets down the barrel easier without cleaning, than the Pyrodex does, because there is less grit in it.

I always run a spit patch down my barrel after each shot with 777, and it seems to hold a good group up to about 5 shots. At that point I have to clean out good or my groups start to suffer.

I always shoot 1 cap through my rifle over a really clean barrel before hunting, thats all I need for my rifle to shoot accurate. I pop the cap inside of my truck to keep the sound down. After the first cap, I don't pop another cap after each spit clean, I just run a spit patch and re-load.

If you spit patch between shots, there should not be enough build up that you shouldn't be able to push a bullet down with a reasonable amount of pressure on the rod. After about 4 or 5 rounds mine starts to get a little hard to push, so I clean it up.

Hope this helps.

PS: Good luck on your Base hunt, I have been seeing some really nice Bucks on the base this week.

FirstFreedom · October 26, 2007, 11:50 AM

Thanks guys; that's very helpful!

CamoCop · October 27, 2007, 05:08 AM

imo, stick with the pyrodex. i ended up giving away a half a box of 777 pellets due to their inconsistancy out of my rifle. i immediately switched over to pyrodex pellets and my groups got 50%-75% tighter. i guess every rifle is different but mine hates 777. i normally shoot 3 shots out of my rifle before cleaning. i keep cleaning after every 3 shots until i get it sighted in where i like it. then i'll clean it and shoot one last follow up shot out of a clean cold bore to make sure it's on. then clean it one last time.

when i clean it, i only use HOT soapy water. this cleans the bore just fine and with the water being hot, it evaporates quick, reducing the ability to rust. if i am giving it the final cleaning of the year and plan on storing it until next hunting season...i give it a good cleaning like i described above. then i will run a patch covered in RemOil down the bore to keep it from rusting. some take the breech plug out but i leave mine in. my ML is a break open style so i don't have to worry about any excess oil running down into the action and corroding/gunking up.

if you choose to oil your bore prior to long term storing (from 1 hunting season to the next), don't forget to remove your breech plug and run a couple dry patches down your bore before loading it. your powder, pellets or loose, will absorb any excess oil like a sponge does water.

htshot · November 20, 2007, 01:35 AM

I've found that fouling shots are a waste of time and ammo, as far as snapping a cap to clear the nipple , this is a wise practice. I've seen to many rifles not go off because of not following this practice.

CraigC · November 20, 2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

I've found that fouling shots are a waste of time and ammo

Mileage varies. My Lyman GPR will throw its first shot from a clean barrel at least a few inches.

Hawg · November 20, 2007, 03:28 PM

I agree with Craig. It depends on the rifle. I don't shoot inlines but I have one that needs a fouling shot and one that doesn't.

thallub · November 21, 2007, 08:12 AM

i never fire a fouling shot. All my muzzleloaders are used for hunting and are sighted to put the first round from a clean bore 3" high at 100 yards. IMO 777 is more dirty than Pyrodex.

rem870hunter · November 26, 2007, 10:49 AM

i ususally pop a cap in mine just before loading. i started with a traditions trapper .50 cal carbine. side hammer. i did it with that too. i now am using a traditions tracker 209 in-line ignition in .50 cal. with a scope. i use 100 grains of pyrodex pellets and a 250 grain lead R.E.A.L. bullet. didn't get any deer with it yet. but i am hoping too.

October 21, 2007, 07:58 PM	#1
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	Muzzleloader Questions Just got back from the range sighting in my muzzleloader, and yep, I have questions (surprise)... 1. Do you guys always pop a primer-only shot to dry the barrel after every cleaning? I cleaned 4 times while at the range, and popped a primer before I began and after each cleaning before firing. Related question: during one of these primer shots, something flew out of the barrel about 5 yards, and landed on the ground, burning/glowing and smoking the whole way - made a whizzing noise too - just exactly like some kind of firework - like a mini roman candle - what the hell was THAT? How can anything of any volume like that get through the tiny flash hole? 2. Regarding fouling shots: I noticed that my groups were groups and not fliers after the fouling shot, which was a flier. My question is, do I have to put a bullet in, in order to get a fouling shot to do what it needs to do to help with accuracy - or do I have to waste a bullet in addition to powder? Dumb related question I should know the answer to: After I had it fully sighted, I cleaned and then shot 1 fouling shot to be ready for hunting next weekend. My question is, how corrosive is 777 - will leaving that 1 fouling shot gunk in there for one week cause irreparable damage to my barrel? Still a bit of a newb to BP equivalents. 3. More of a comment: Pyrodex seemed to be cleaner than Triple 7 - anyone else agree or disagree? It also seemed to be more accurate. Before I ran out of Pyrodex, I was getting sub-2" groups at 80 yards, and with 777, more like 4" groups. 4. I sighted in for 240 gr bullets (saboted), but by the time I got sighted in, I had run out of bullets. So, since I'll need some to hunt with, I decided to re-sight in with the only bullets I had left, 300 grain HPs (saboted) of the same brand. So, should hit lower at 80 yards, right? Nope, the 300s hit about 6" higher - how is this possible? Same charge - 100 gr of 777. 5. When it takes a tremendous amount of force on the bullet starter to push the bullet into the muzzle to get it started, at what point is the force so much that this is an indication of an unsafe narrowing of the bore? Or would it be impossible to manually push the bullet in, in the event the bore was so obstructed that it's unsafe?

October 21, 2007, 10:22 PM	#2
K.A.T. Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: Gainesville,Ga. Posts: 80	I fire a fouling shot of 50grns. of powder packed with a dry patch on top,this is in my TC hawkins(side hammer).I do this because of the way the ignition system is designed,oil can hide in the turn between the nipple and barrel. I'm assuming you are shooting an inline with a sabot bullet,in that case I would not shoot a fouling shot.I don't think it helps a sabot load,someone correct me if I have this wrong,I don't use sabots. I wouldn't leave my rifle with a dirty barrel for a week.Just fire the fouling shot before you go in the woods. __________________ Never mind the dog, beware of the Colt!

October 22, 2007, 12:19 AM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Lighter bullets often hit lower. It's because the heavier bullet stays in the barrel longer during the initial recoil impulse. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 22, 2007, 09:19 AM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"but if it really gets stuck then you may end up needing to hammer it out too." My gunsmith in Pennsylvania would occasionally see stuck balls. Instead of trying to remove the breech plug, he'd get as much of the powder out as he could and then he had a special fitting that allowed him to use a grease gun to hydraulically force the stuck ball out. He said that it had never failed to remove a lodged ball. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 22, 2007, 12:12 PM	#6
Wild Bill Bucks Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2005 Location: Southeastern Oklahoma, Next door to Sasquatch Posts: 1,266	I don't think either powder is all that clean, but I'll tell you something that I tried that might surprise you. Put a SMALL amount of pyrodex on a smooth metal surface, and ignite it with a match. Then put a SMALL amount of 777 on the same surface and ignite it also. After both are ignited, take your finger and rub the Pyrodex between your finger and thumb, then do the same with the residue from the 777. You will notice an almost sandpaper grit in the Pyrodex, and the 777 will feel like a smooth face powder. I think that the 777 lets you load more bullets down the barrel easier without cleaning, than the Pyrodex does, because there is less grit in it. I always run a spit patch down my barrel after each shot with 777, and it seems to hold a good group up to about 5 shots. At that point I have to clean out good or my groups start to suffer. I always shoot 1 cap through my rifle over a really clean barrel before hunting, thats all I need for my rifle to shoot accurate. I pop the cap inside of my truck to keep the sound down. After the first cap, I don't pop another cap after each spit clean, I just run a spit patch and re-load. If you spit patch between shots, there should not be enough build up that you shouldn't be able to push a bullet down with a reasonable amount of pressure on the rod. After about 4 or 5 rounds mine starts to get a little hard to push, so I clean it up. Hope this helps. PS: Good luck on your Base hunt, I have been seeing some really nice Bucks on the base this week.

October 26, 2007, 11:50 AM	#7
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	Thanks guys; that's very helpful!

October 27, 2007, 05:08 AM	#8
CamoCop Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 133	imo, stick with the pyrodex. i ended up giving away a half a box of 777 pellets due to their inconsistancy out of my rifle. i immediately switched over to pyrodex pellets and my groups got 50%-75% tighter. i guess every rifle is different but mine hates 777. i normally shoot 3 shots out of my rifle before cleaning. i keep cleaning after every 3 shots until i get it sighted in where i like it. then i'll clean it and shoot one last follow up shot out of a clean cold bore to make sure it's on. then clean it one last time. when i clean it, i only use HOT soapy water. this cleans the bore just fine and with the water being hot, it evaporates quick, reducing the ability to rust. if i am giving it the final cleaning of the year and plan on storing it until next hunting season...i give it a good cleaning like i described above. then i will run a patch covered in RemOil down the bore to keep it from rusting. some take the breech plug out but i leave mine in. my ML is a break open style so i don't have to worry about any excess oil running down into the action and corroding/gunking up. if you choose to oil your bore prior to long term storing (from 1 hunting season to the next), don't forget to remove your breech plug and run a couple dry patches down your bore before loading it. your powder, pellets or loose, will absorb any excess oil like a sponge does water.

November 20, 2007, 01:35 AM	#9
htshot Member Join Date: October 30, 2007 Posts: 74	I've found that fouling shots are a waste of time and ammo, as far as snapping a cap to clear the nipple , this is a wise practice. I've seen to many rifles not go off because of not following this practice.

November 20, 2007, 03:28 PM	#11
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I agree with Craig. It depends on the rifle. I don't shoot inlines but I have one that needs a fouling shot and one that doesn't.

November 21, 2007, 08:12 AM	#12
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	i never fire a fouling shot. All my muzzleloaders are used for hunting and are sighted to put the first round from a clean bore 3" high at 100 yards. IMO 777 is more dirty than Pyrodex.

November 26, 2007, 10:49 AM	#13
rem870hunter Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2007 Location: N.J. and trying to decide what state to move to. Posts: 973	i ususally pop a cap in mine just before loading. i started with a traditions trapper .50 cal carbine. side hammer. i did it with that too. i now am using a traditions tracker 209 in-line ignition in .50 cal. with a scope. i use 100 grains of pyrodex pellets and a 250 grain lead R.E.A.L. bullet. didn't get any deer with it yet. but i am hoping too.