Lethal force in Tempe teenager shooting - Page 2

Double Naught Spy · January 29, 2019, 08:47 AM

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It is, quite different in America.

While shooting someone running away in the back is generally not justified, or moral, there are specific circumstances where the recognizes it as justifiable, by POLICE officers but not for regular citizens.

There is no law that stipulates where a bullet is to impact or from what direction it must be fired to be considered justifiable.

"Running away" is a bit of a misnomer. It the person really trying to just get away or simply moving to a different position? Does their direction of travel put others into danger?

manta49 · January 29, 2019, 02:31 PM

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Shooting someone running away in the back...

It really does depend on the situation.

The following is not the situation described in the original post, but imagine a bad guy being chased by the police down a street with an average number of everyday folk around. The bad guy stops in a doorway, takes a couple shots then runs a ways down the street, stops in another doorway, takes a few shots...you get my point. The bad guy is endangering the public. As he's leaving one doorway, maybe headed for another doorway do you think the police should shoot or not?

Yep. Again this is not the scenario this thread is based on but I'm just pointing out (with a scenario that's not too absurd) that it really does depend on the specific situation being faced.

In the situation you describe yes, but as you say that is not what happened in this case.

manta49 · January 29, 2019, 02:39 PM

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"Running away" is a bit of a misnomer. It the person really trying to just get away or simply moving to a different position? Does their direction of travel put others into danger?

If you are ruining away, then you are ruining away. If you then take up a position to shoot, shooting back would be justified. Follow that logic then the police should shoot anyone running away, just in case.

**44 AMP** · January 29, 2019, 02:59 PM

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Follow that logic then the police should shoot anyone running away, just in case.

I'm sure there are some people who think that the police should shoot fleeing suspects in the back. But that's not official policy, police are neither required nor encouraged to shoot people in the back. But, if they do, because they felt they had to, (and the evidence bears this out after investigation) they won't be prosecuted.

849ACSO · January 29, 2019, 03:28 PM

At the end of the day, the matter of justification will not reside with whether he was "running away", or whether or not the gun was real, or whether or not he was developmentally challenged, or any one circumstance. It will, and SHOULD rest on one thing -

Would a REASONABLE PERSON, without the luxury of hindsight, have done the same thing in those circumstances knowing ONLY what the officer knew at the time he pulled the trigger?

Everyone tends to get hung up on one aspect of a situation, like "he was running away". Got to look past the tree to see the woods.................

**Aguila Blanca** · January 29, 2019, 03:28 PM

A thief running away empty-handed, or with Suzie Soccermom's purse dangling from his hand, isn't much of a threat to anyone.

A mugger running away with a handgun in his hand is an immediate threat to anyone within range of the handgun. I believe most reasonable people would view a police officer as being justified in shooting a thief with a gun in his hand. If it subsequently turns out that the gun was a realistic-looking replica/toy/airsoft ... well, as the saying goes, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

manta49 · January 29, 2019, 04:03 PM

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Would a REASONABLE PERSON, without the luxury of hindsight, have done the same thing in those circumstances knowing ONLY what the officer knew at the time he pulled the trigger?

I like to think i am a reasonable person, in the situation in the video i would not have shot there was no need to. But i assume there will be a investigation and others will decide, if it was justified or not. Who will investigates the officers actions. ?

manta49 · January 29, 2019, 04:05 PM

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A mugger running away with a handgun in his hand is an immediate threat to anyone within range of the handgun.

What does the law say in that type of situation. ?

JERRYS. · January 29, 2019, 04:19 PM

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Would a REASONABLE PERSON, without the luxury of hindsight, have done the same thing in those circumstances knowing ONLY what the officer knew at the time he pulled the trigger?

police officers are not held to the reasonable person standard, they are held to the reasonable police officer with the same experience and training standard.

manta49 · January 29, 2019, 04:24 PM

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Jaen is currently on paid leave pending an administrative and criminal investigation. Tempe police plan to submit their investigation to the Maricopa County Attorney's Office to determine whether any charges should be filed against Jaen.

I found this, police investigating police would not be allowed or seen as acceptable here.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 29, 2019, 08:49 PM

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Originally Posted by manta49

I found this, police investigating police would not be allowed or seen as acceptable here.

Who investigates your police in cases possibly involving excessive use of force?

Gary L. Griffiths · January 29, 2019, 11:30 PM

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If you are ruining away, then you are ruining away.

Thus illustrating the Suzy Soccermom viewpoint. Was he running away, or was he headed for cover to begin shooting at the officer? IIRC in the vestcam video, the "victim" was about to reach the corner of a wall. The officer had a choice of stopping him then, or waiting until he (1) was at a disadvantage because an armed felony suspect now had cover, or (2) losing sight of an armed suspect running into an inhabited neighborhood where he might attempt a carjacking, shoot an innocent bystander he might believe posed a threat, or take hostages.

A lot to think about in a couple of seconds!

Bartholomew Roberts · January 30, 2019, 08:24 AM

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A lot to think about in a couple of seconds!

And still probably not even 1/10 of the information he had to process and think about in those few seconds.

manta49 · January 30, 2019, 02:19 PM

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Originally Posted by manta49
I found this, police investigating police would not be allowed or seen as acceptable here.

Who investigates your police in cases possibly involving excessive use of force?

Here it would be investigated by a independent authority.

Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
https://www.policeombudsman.org/

Glenn E. Meyer · January 30, 2019, 02:23 PM

An independent investigation in all these cases is useful - just look at the recent Chicago disaster.

January 29, 2019, 03:28 PM	#30
849ACSO Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2014 Location: Somewhere in the middle Posts: 629	At the end of the day, the matter of justification will not reside with whether he was "running away", or whether or not the gun was real, or whether or not he was developmentally challenged, or any one circumstance. It will, and SHOULD rest on one thing - Would a REASONABLE PERSON, without the luxury of hindsight, have done the same thing in those circumstances knowing ONLY what the officer knew at the time he pulled the trigger? Everyone tends to get hung up on one aspect of a situation, like "he was running away". Got to look past the tree to see the woods................. __________________ "The day you stop learning SHOULD directly coincide with the day you stop breathing."

January 30, 2019, 02:23 PM	#40
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	An independent investigation in all these cases is useful - just look at the recent Chicago disaster. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 29, 2019, 03:28 PM	#31
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	A thief running away empty-handed, or with Suzie Soccermom's purse dangling from his hand, isn't much of a threat to anyone. A mugger running away with a handgun in his hand is an immediate threat to anyone within range of the handgun. I believe most reasonable people would view a police officer as being justified in shooting a thief with a gun in his hand. If it subsequently turns out that the gun was a realistic-looking replica/toy/airsoft ... well, as the saying goes, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."