I Wouldn't Want To Be Shot By A 25acp....

[Bill DeShivs]

Here is a picture of a bunch of pocket pistols:
A Browning lightweight .25, a Bernardelli .25, a Keltec P32, Keltec P3AT, Beretta .32 Tomcat, and a Keltec PF9 9mm.

You can see the size differences.

[Bill DeShivs]

Here is another pic to show the difference in thickness of the PF9 (considered to be one of the thinnest 9mms, to the Bernardelli .25.

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[Double Naught Spy]

Many people talk about a 25acp like its an airsoft gun. Still it fires a 50 grain bullet at over 800fps.

Yes, it is dangerous, no doubt, but given most of the other calibers out there that one could be shot with, .25 acp would be on the more forgiving end of the centerfire spectrum. It is a small, light bullet with about 70 ft lbs of energy. I have seen ballistic gel results that vary between 6 and 12" of penetration.

While I know there may be better options, the 25acp is a nasty round which is capable of stopping a normal (not meth-crazed) attacker.

Nasty? What makes it nasty? Is that a trait not held by other calibers? Yes, it is capable of stopping a normal person. Since you are talking normal person versus a meth crazed attacker, then it sounds like you are talking more about psychological stops than physiological stops. Turns out, misses with a .25 acp have been known to stop normal people as well - again, psychological stop. That is just the nature of the business, right? Some people will stop with a threat of a gun. Some will stop at the sight of a gun. Some will stop at the sound of a shot. Some will stop after a minor grazing wound. Some will stop after a non-lethal hit. In other words, the psychological standard for stopping humans is pretty loosey-goosey, but that is what most of the stops are, and not just for this caliber, but for handguns in general.

Is it capable of physiological stops? Sure, as John KSa noted. Generally speaking, the smaller and lower powerful the caliber, the more precise one's shots need to be to make physiological stops.

No he wasn't because there's no telling where they will end up.

Is there any telling where any bullet will end up once it enters a body? Not exactly. However, the .25 acp isn't particularly unique in where it ends up in the body. It isn't like it just starts randomly zigzagging around.

The .25 auto has been working for 125 years, as a rule. If it didn't, it wouldn't still be around.

Sort of reminds me of the history of palm reading which has been documented for hundreds of years. With a track record like that, you know it has to be a proven endeavor or it would not still be around, either. It works, right? And there's the rub. Sometimes things remain in use despite not actually working as well as we might think given their long history. Tailgator hit on a very salient point. A big part of the marketing for the caliber and the guns of the caliber was on carrying convenience, not on effectiveness of stopping bad guys (or anyone). No surprise, that marketing is still being used today with a variety of guns and products.

So it works, but for what or whom is it working? Certainly does not appear to work good as an issued caliber enough for any US law enforcement agency in the last 70 years (that I can find). It certainly seems to work as a deep concealment type carrier caliber for when people can't carry something better...which is telling in and of itself. It has certainly had a following with the old Saturday Night Special crowd of cheapo guns. So why has it lasted. Has it lasted because it is such a good self defense round or because small, relatively inexpensive, and marketed well? For example, a Colt Vest Pocket ran about $18 in 1950, but a 1911 cost about $50.

Just like we should not discount it as being comparable to Airsoft, we should not play it up either as some sort of master defense round with a 125 year history of grand self defense achievements.

At this point, it is pretty much relegated to being a niche caliber carried by a very limited number of people, usually in the form of diminutive-sized guns that will poke little holes in one's opposition several inches deep. In this realm, it performs well, in part due to the striking lack of competition for guns of this size, but that seems to be its real niche. It isn't a gun being marketed or endorsed by very many folks as a primary self defense caliber and not being issued by an US law enforcement.

It is dangerous, even lethal, but isn't that good overall, unless your only option really is a fairly tiny gun.

[stinkeypete]

The goal is to deter an attacker, not put venison on the table.

I find this collection of pocket pistols appealing. Bill has good taste.

[glider]

Kahr PM9 is IMO the best pocket pistol available and has been for a lot of years! I have a N.A.A. 22 revolver that is a neat little stainless revolver but it's a toy and I wouldn't mind having a Colt Junior or a Tomcat, but they are toys also. Well made, very small handguns are just cool, not really good for much but fun to have!

[Shoots Left]

Garand Thumb made a video last year showcasing a Colt Model 1908 25acp pocket pistol. And yeah, I agree with the OP, I wouldn’t want to be shot by one either.

[Skans]

Originally Posted by bamaranger

I said I was done, but I have a .25acp story.

A ranger in one of our urban parks decided to intervene in an altercation between a young woman of questionable morals and her employer. Our hero was off duty and armed with....yup.....a .25acp. In the altercation that followed Sir Gallahad drops the .25 onto the pavement......and it discharges. The round strikes the woman on the leg and she gets treatment and survives.
H er employer departs on foot most hastily never to be seen again.
The ranger........?????

He got a a transfer with a promotion.

I think the moral of the story there is "don't drop your gun!". Oh, and at least we know the gun worked.

[Ricklin]

The Colt .25 is it drop safe? That does give me pause given it's diminutive size. That is a pony I would like to add to my herd, but I'd never carry it.

[Armybrat]

I have the Kahr CM9 which is the less expensive version of the PM9.
Agree with Glider that it is an excellent pocket pistol with a real punch.
Also have some NAA Mini magnums that are really neat little jewels, but just for fun, IMO.

My brother had an old 1908 Colt .25 inherited from our grandfather, but it was stolen when he valet parked his VW Bug in Mexico 60+ years ago.i

[4V50 Gary]

Bill, you're missing a Colt 1908.

[Bill DeShivs]

I was never particularly fond of the Colt or Browning old models. I would buy one at the right price, though.

There are a lot more- in addition to the Browning and Bernardelli, I have a rare Llama .25 (and two in .22 short!), a Galesi .25, a Rigarmi .25, a Bauer .25, an Intratec .25, a "Libia" Spanish .25, an Astra Cub .22 short, a Sterling .22 lr, a Beretta Jetfire .25, a couple of Beretta Minx .22 shorts, a couple of Beretta model 20 .25s, a 4" Beretta model 21 .22lr, a Bernardelli in .22 long/short and a PSP Browning .25.

I think that's all of the little .22 and .25 guns. There are some larger ones in .22lr here.

I don't carry any of them, though I have in the past.

[Jack Ryan]

I don't want shot with a pellet gun but that doesn't make it far up my list self defense choices.

[TailGator]

a "Libia" Spanish .25

I have one of those that we inherited from my wife's side of the family. In researching it I found that the company that made it now makes bicycles. Funky little guy that works most of the time.

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't want shot with a pellet gun but that doesn't make it far up my list self defense choices.

Exactly. That is why "not wanting to be shot with..." is a really low standard for self defense considerations.

I mean, are there any calibers any of you non-suicidal people DO want to be shot with?

Of course not.

[skoro]

While the 25acp certainly isn't a piece that I'd carry, I do have a Beretta Jetfire in that caliber and it's a little gem of a pistol. Sure, I've read the internet stories of how some guy claims he heard that a 25 wouldn't penetrate a light jacket or that it would bounce off a tin can. The net is full of all sorts of silly baloney that gets repeated in gun forums.

Mine shoots through 2x4s and metal buckets with no sweat. So, don't ever think that it isn't a lethal round if applied properly. But with so many better options available today, it's probably best considered a novelty. There are some really neat little mini pistols from bygone days out there. The Baby Browning is one I'd like to get my hands on.

[armoredman]

One of the most anemic rounds ever depended on for self defense is the original .32 SW. An 85 grain slug powder by black powder to a screaming 93 foot pounds of energy, or a smokeless load of a 98 grain slug also at 705 FPS, for a massive impact of 108 foot pounds.
However, .32 SW revolvers remained in production a very long time. In fact, the Harrington and Richardson Double Action Young America was in production from 1884 to 1941, 57 years, which is longer than Glock has been imported into the US.



The 25 ACP has been in production since 1905, literally 120 years. While I would REALLY ike to not have to trust my life to either round, ya gotta admire the staying power!

[Ricklin]

Yes, given there are PCP "pellet guns" that can run with the big dogs in the FPE arena. People have taken Cape Buffalo, with an air gun.
A "pellet gun" can be a very deadly weapon. I'm certain a mag dump with my full auto blitz would end someone. Penetration is greatly enhanced with volume.