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Old November 18, 2020, 12:00 PM   #26
rickt300
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All I can say is you are one of the best on all the internet forums as for explaining things with good information. I shot up the two boxes I had loaded with the 41.0 grains of LVR and 150 gr. Speer FN's so I could load fresh ammo for this year. Still shot great with no issues. I have a new canister of LVR so I am working back up though this time I am hoping for an accurate load around 2400 fps. The Speer FN seemed a bit soft on a couple of medium size hogs I shot a week ago so I am hoping slowing them down a bit will help.
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Old November 19, 2020, 01:21 PM   #27
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I am curious, having owned a T/C Contender Super 14 chambered in 30-30 years ago, why you are choosing to use a flat nose bullet? One of the purported advantages of the Contender was the ability to load pointy spitzer bullets with superior Ballistic coefficients, and if you are getting close to .300 Savage velocity level, wouldn’t a simple answer be a Speer Hot Cor 150 gr spitzer?
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Old November 19, 2020, 01:53 PM   #28
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I think either Speer or Hornady..I'm thinking its Hornady,makes a 150 gr bullet specifically for the 300 Savage,

Expansion might be tuned for the velocity.
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Old November 19, 2020, 06:03 PM   #29
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Rickt300,

Thanks.

Glad the load has worked out for you. If the bullets seem soft on hogs and your range isn't great enough to require a high ballistic coefficient, you could go in another direction and look at hard, wide flat-nose solid projectiles either in very hard cast or in copper. They make surprisingly large wounds. The 140 and 160-grain very hardcast (Bhn 21+) Beartooth bullets offerings are one possibility. The third post here lists some sources of copper solids with this shape.
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Old November 24, 2020, 09:39 PM   #30
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Got a bunch of them and they shoot really well. I'm using it mostly for a woods gun anyway which is why I don't mind slowing the bullet down a bit. That Contender carbine is easy to sling over my shoulder and climb into a tree stand. I really had no idea that the new powders could get that much velocity until I tried it.
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Old November 24, 2020, 09:45 PM   #31
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Heck with a single shot I could load some bullets backwards and reduce the powder charge a bit and see how that works out. I actually got good bullet performance in that it killed well. Going back out tomorrow. Raining now and that usually gets them moving.
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Old November 26, 2020, 02:06 PM   #32
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Yep. That's the flatnose principle in action. It just costs you some powder space which raises pressure. Not a problem with loads you work up for the purpose, though.
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Old November 30, 2020, 02:13 AM   #33
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I shot my 30-30 AI for the first time today

The range shut down for a few months over covid, just when I was about to fireform a bunch of 30-30 brass, and they've re-opened now.
So I'm on it.

This is a 14" Contender with a factory .30-30 barrel that was re-chambered
It has a pretty long throat so COAL is 2.92" with the bullet contacting the rifling, using Hornady 150 gr tipped bullets DON'T set very deep into the neck -maybe just 3/16"

I was reviewing old threads containing load data and this one came up and I made a point of it to check the primer protrusion after firing.
It ended that regardless of my powder selection, there was no case set-back.

I used what load data I could find and loaded some up with LVR and IMR 4895.
There wasn't any case set-back on any load, which was good news, to me, because that would mean that there will be minimal frame stretch.
The clearance between the back of the case and the breech (head clearance?) is .006" on my Contender and some of the primers are blown back that far.
Something that I've been reading on the 30-30AI is that the straight wall clutches the chamber. So I'm seeing this is true.
Back thrust on the bolt or breech (depending on the type of gun) is nil.
I read also that there was a test performed using the 30-30 AI in which the bolt was removed ane the gun was fired electronically andthe cartridge stayed in place.
... Prolly read that already

On my first couple loads, I mistakenly had the re-sizing die set a bit low and ended up pushing the shoulder back a bit and on those loads, there was a crack in the case, just behind the shoulder... The case had actually stretched forward on those.
So I'm going to be sure to re-size the cases with the neck sizer stopping about .020" before it contacts the shoulder.

I have to get my scope zeroed in a bit better at 100 yd... I ran out of ammo just as I was getting it right.

I have some 125 gr flat base bullets and some 150 gr boat tail
I'll take my chrono out there next time and learn some more.

I'm not seeing load data for LVR powder using any bullets lighter than 150 gr
Has anyone successfully tried LVR with 125 gr bullets and found an accurate load?

Thanks

Last edited by BeeKay; November 30, 2020 at 10:43 AM.
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Old November 30, 2020, 06:44 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeKay
The clearance between the back of the case and the breech (head clearance?) is .006" on my Contender and some of the primers are blown back that far.
That's a low-pressure sign. Normally the head would back up and reseat the primer. If the case is stuck to the chamber walls by pressure, you also have enough pressure to start stretching the brass to get the head back against the breech face. If neither is happening, the pressure is pretty low.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeKay
Something that I've been reading on the 30-30AI is that the straight wall clutches the chamber. So I'm seeing this is true. Back-thrust on the bolt or breech (depending on the type of gun) is nil.
For that to happen, the brass has to be strong enough to contain the pressure without the help of the breech face, but it's only strong enough to resist up to about four or five thousand psi. Above that pressure, either the case backs up and applies the force to the breech face or the case gets stuck and the force exceeds the yield of the brass in the head and stretches it out starting where the brass wall starts to thicken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeKay
I read also that there was a test performed using the 30-30 AI in which the bolt was removed ane the gun was fired electronically andthe cartridge stayed in place.
... Prolly read that already
These things get distorted on the Internet. I read a description of the experiment by one of the participants some years ago (it may have been P. O. Ackley himself, as I have a book he wrote on loading). I don't recall which AI cartridge it was; only that it was one of them, so the shallow taper was there. IIRC, the bolt was in the gun (it has the firing pin, after all) but the locking lugs were removed so the bolt was free to back up and out of the receiver. In that instance, the bolt's inertia was able to keep the cartridge intact, but that doesn't mean there was zero thrust.
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Old December 2, 2020, 09:51 PM   #35
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Unclenick - I'm still trying to figure it out...
The test you mentioned at the end of your post was P.O.Ackley, testing the .30/30 Improved in a rifle with the lugs removed from the bolt.

I'm just saying that the results I got firing my .30/30 AI supports what the Original Poster says about how the case was not backing out.

I was using loads that were about 1 gr below max. And I had some max loads made up which I didn't use because it was doing unexpected things.

I think that someone could make the claim that whatever things typically go on with rifle cartridges when they're fired, the .30/30 AI yields unexpected results, as a straight walled case.

There is no roughness in the walls of the chamber - I had the chamber reamed by a gunsmith that has a lot of experience. The walls of the chamber are smoother than most factory chambers.

It's just one of the .30/30 AIs carachteristics, by design.
He designed it to be a cartridge for lever guns that would take thrust load off the bolt, because the bolts of lever guns aren't as strong as bolt action.

So anyhow I'm still looking to compare notes on loads using 125 gr bullets that are seated to a length of 2.92, using LeveRevolution powder, in a Contender. I might have to pioneer that.

I bought 8 lb of LVR powder a short while ago because it's all they had left.

Last edited by BeeKay; December 2, 2020 at 11:07 PM.
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Old December 2, 2020, 10:36 PM   #36
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Yep lugs removed from the bolt. What I was responding to was in post #33 you said the bolt was removed, not that it was in place with just the lugs removed, and I'd seen that said elsewhere, so I just assumed you were echoing that Internet myth, but I guess it was just a typo.

You might take an interest in Varmint Al's work on bolt thrust verses chamber finish. The animated FEA output images are fascinating.
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Old December 2, 2020, 11:02 PM   #37
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I remembered reading the PO Ackley article several years ago and the details were fuzzy in my mind.
I had to commit some time to re-searching that to refresh my memory.
But I found it and reread it.

My thoughts are that the design features that make the .30/30 AI a good cartridge for lever rifles because of reduced thrust against the bolt face, probably also makes it good for the Contender for the same reason.

I'm thinking I'll shim the breech to tighten up the clearance between it and the case head.
Maybe to .002"
... For anyone following who's not familiar with Contenders, there are headspace adjustment shims available for that purpose.
Without closing up that clearance a bit, I'd expect case stretching at the web.

There are a lot of variables to deal with before I'll find what's best because the chamber was reamed with a long throat for Barnes projectiles.
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Old December 3, 2020, 09:49 AM   #38
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BeeKay,

The bolt thrust comes from stretching the brass, so unless Ackley could make that brass thicker, I think the main difference in an Improved design would just be the precise pressure threshold at which the case sticks to the chamber wall.

This excerpt from a book about Ackley describes replicating some of Ackley's work using more modern measuring methods. It surprised me by showing 30-30 brass is too thick to stretch at factory (SAAMI max) pressures. So where I mentioned your protruding primer is a low-pressure sign, these fellows prove that is not so in the 30-30 (or the 30-30 AI) operating at SAAMI 30-30 pressures. But it also shows some of Ackley's conclusions, reached without modern instrumentation, were not justified. It looks like an interesting read, and I have now ordered a copy of the book, here.

The good news from that report is that in your Contender, the 30-30 at SAAMI operating pressures and if you have at least a little head clearance, won't produce any breech face thrust at all beyond what the primer does (1,455 pounds-force by static analysis at 42,000 psi, though, be cautioned that this may vary with the brand of brass you choose and is probably a little lower in dynamic analysis). It looks like, at those pressures, the cartridge head itself acts as the gun's breech and the brass doesn't back up to push on the steel at all.
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Old December 3, 2020, 10:18 AM   #39
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Unclenick - That's all interesting stuff and good to know.
I've has a Contender for a while but am just now finding out about frame stretch.
I missed out on the IHMSA craze of the 80s so I haven't had the opportunity to compare notes with other Contender guys - Other than on the internet.

Yeah - With high enough pressures, even if the .30/30 AI cases clung to the chamber walls, the weak point would be the web.
If Ackley pursued destructive testing and continued firing the gun with tthe lug free bolt til it reached the breaking point, the case head would separate, eventually.
Don't cha think?
So I'll be looking for case stretch

My mission is to come up with an accurate / reliable deer load using lead free projectiles for hunting in Calif. (Mandatory lead free here)

This isn't the first thread I've read where someone mentioned having used 41 gr of LVR in the .30-30 AI with 150 gr bullets.
I stopped at 38.5 gr
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Old February 21, 2021, 09:35 PM   #40
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Tried it over the chrono

Today I made it to the range with some bullets of varied weights loaded over LVR.
I tried starting with 39 gr of LVR under a 150 gr bullet, working up to 41 gr of LVR/150 bullet, and the best velocity I got was 2380.
With 125 gr bullets I maxed out at 44.5 gr LVR powder under a 125 gr bullet and I got about 2550.
The first loads I fired were back about the last time I posted here, whenever that was and I realized that I needed to tighten up my clearance between the breech and the back of the case. At first it was .006 but I closed it to .002, after seeing case stretch at the web.

My primers are still protruding after firing, which has me puzzled.

I'll measure for stretch after I clean and re-size the cases.

My ultimate goal is to develop some loads using copper projectiles for hunting in CA.
So when I had the chamber reamed, I had the throat extended, because the copper bullets require extra distance to jump before engaging into the rifling.
So when I seated today's bullets (jacketed lead hunting bullets) in this test I seated them further out that the .30-30 AI data indicates, for a longer COL.

If anyone is interested in pursuing this old thread, I'll give more specific detail.
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Old February 22, 2021, 11:42 AM   #41
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So you are saying you get stretching at the web and you have the primer backing out? That's interesting. Are you sure it isn't just the shoulder blowing forward rather than the web stretching back?

What is the copper bullet you are using and what COL are you loading to? Also, what is the water overflow capacity of one of your fired (but not yet resized) cases? (To find case water "overflow" capacity, you leave the spent primer in the fired case and weigh it and measure the case length and then fill with water level with the mouth and with no meniscus and weigh it again. The difference in the two weights is the case water overflow capacity in grains).

In QuickLOAD with a Barnes Flat nose seated out to 2.782", I couldn't get past about 2200 fps without raising pressure (adjusting case capacity) to 62,000 psi. GRT's powder model is a bit different and it let me reach 2380 at about 54,000 psi.
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Old February 23, 2021, 01:35 AM   #42
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Yes - this is baffling
I had Mike Bellm chamber this barrel for me and he likes to remove some material from the back of the barrel to make it simple to check the consistency of the headspacing by using a feeler gauge between the back of the case and the breech and what I'm getting with the cases headspaced off the shoulder is .002" gap.
I fired about 20 loads and they were sized at 2.015" to 2.016" when i loaded them.
Now I'm measuring them and they're in the area of 2.024" and the primer is proud after firing, when it was inset before firing.
So somehow these cases are stretching - But where and how?
This almost sounds like it has to be a hoax - LOL
But I'm seeing it with my own eyes - All of the cases, from the starting loads - Which is 39 gr (.5 gr above the max load for a .30/30 case before fireforming) up to 41 gr which is about 95% to 98% filled.

Either the cases are stretching at the neck, or the frame is deforming that far with each shot.

It's really difficult to try to look for excess pressure indications when this is taking place.

It's difficult to measure stretching of the neck because I don't have a tool that rests on the shoulder to provide a square surface to measure from.

If they're stretching at the neck... which Is possible, apparently, then maybe that isn't such a bad thing.
Maybe I should make some more cases that have a longer neck that rests against the front edge.
But my concern is that I might be somehow stretching my frame.

I haven't fired any of my Barnes bullets yet.
I've been firing some Sierra and Nosler bullets of 125 and 150 gr
OAL of 2.863" leaves them about .002" behind the rifling.
They're seated pretty far out and the base of the bullet doesn't extend below the shoulder, adding a bit to the capacity.

I'm thinking I may add a .002" shim begind the breech to close the gap between the breech face and the case to 0" such as what is done with Herret cases, back when I had one of those.

Last edited by BeeKay; February 23, 2021 at 02:03 AM.
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Old February 23, 2021, 01:26 PM   #43
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Yes, that's within normal neck stretch, though stretching mostly occurs during resizing. The shoulder location changing would explain it though. If the shoulder is shortening during firing, that would both elongate the neck and make more room for primer protrusion if the stretch is not in the usual pressure ring location. There's a discussion in another thread currently about whether firing pins and primer force can shorten a case before the powder gets burning, and you may have proof of that happening in your case.

If you don't have the commercial case comparator tool, you can improvise. Just take a case to the hardware with you and find a spacer whose hold lands in the middle of the neck slope somewhere and that is longer than the neck. That means the hole should be about 3/8". Just be aware that because a spacer is labeled 3/8" doesn't mean it actually is. The one in the photo below was more like 0.41" inside. If you have a hardware store that sells replacement bonze bearing bushings, one of those in 3/8" will be pretty accurate.

If our theory in the first paragraph is right, the head-to-shoulder dimension will actually be shorter after firing.

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Old February 24, 2021, 11:26 PM   #44
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On a couple of cases I was seeing a crack just below the shoulder.
I'm going to do a chamber cast and see how far the neck goes up before it steps down to the throat and if I can, I'll size the cases to that length, so they headspace from the shoulder, but won't allow neck to stretch.

I remember sizing my .357 Herret cases so there was a slight interference fit when the action was closed.
If I do it that way, then it ought to eliminate the primer backing out.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.
It helps out to write stuff down sometimes, to get off the hamster wheel of thought processing, when trying to problem-solve.
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Old Yesterday, 02:28 PM   #45
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IMG_20210226_000405.jpg

IMG_20210226_000439.jpg

IMG_20210226_000618.jpg

Shown is a (grainy, but I think it will suffice) pic of a chamber cast next to a case and another pic of a case with the bullet seated to the point where it touches the lands.

There is no step in the chamber where the case mouth fits in before the throat.
I thought there should be a step there but there isn't.
It's .335" dia between the shoulder and a short tapered area then about .030" of cylindrical throat before the rifling lands.

When I had this done I wasn't familiar enough with the AI chambering to ask for anything specific. So I left it up to the gunsmith.

But the target shows a 15 shot string @ 30 yd.
I pulled one shot because I was having a hard time believing they were all going through one hole.
At 100 ys it widened out and I was shooting 5 different loads so 100 yd consistency wasn't impressive.

it seems like it's accurate, but the necks stretching like they do bugs me.
I probably won't get more that 3 firings per case if they're stretching .010" each time I shoot and I hoped for better.
But maybe I should just learn to live with it

Last edited by BeeKay; Yesterday at 02:47 PM.
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