6.5-06 problems

[F. Guffey]

all I see is one little mark on the base of the shoulder.

Who measures before and again after. If I thought there was something going on when sizing I would make sure the case was sized when the ram went up, if the case gets sized when the ram goes up and the die was adjusted 1/4 turn after contact there would be no gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder.

But if you went for the grinder instead of determining if the case had more resistance to sizing than the die and press could overcome you have screwed up a shell holder because all of my shell holders have a deck height of .125" And then there are ways to increase and or decrease the presses ability to overcome the case's ability to resist sizing.

And you still have to determine what caused the problem at the case body/shoulder juncture. I would suggest you avoid crimping because there are a few manufacturers of dies that believe crimping and seating the bullet at the same time is a bad habit. I go for bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get, if I had a tension gage that measured tension I would go for tension.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

We are not trying to bump the Queen Mary back to the size of a row boat.

'Bump' We stole a lot of ships from the English in the old days, the first thing we did to English ships when they bumped into our shores is fix them. We did not like ships that hogged when they hit a heavy wave so we 'fixed that'. Ships built here did not hog.

So if you bump the Queen Mary the ship will get shorter and wider, when the ship is backed off the length recovers. When sizing a case it is impossible to bump the shoulder back with a die that has full body support. I say full because I include the shoulder and case body.

I know, this is confusing to most but the shoulder I start with is not the same shoulder I finish with; so what is so confusing about that? I am the only reloader that can not move the shoulder back with a full length sizing die: The up side? I am the only reloader that understands without case body support the case body gets larger in diameter to the point if the reloaders does not stop pushing on the handle the case will develop bellows and take on the appearance of an accordion or a case with bellows.

F. Guffey

[Unclenick]

Lee dies have the same thread standard dies do and don't need any different amount of turn-in after making deck contact. The reason Lee has instructions for more turn-in is this is for their smaller aluminum frame presses. Aluminum has a lower modulus of elasticity than cast iron does, and both because of that and because their aluminum castings are lighter than many cast iron presses, they have to stretch further to achieve the same amount of compression between the die mouth and shell holder deck. If you use lee dies on a cast iron press, then you don't adjust them any differently than other dies.


HiBC,

The Redding Competition shell holders are to compensate for long headspace. They only come taller, not shorter than standard, and are in 0.002" increments.

That said, you could take an inexpensive Lee shell holder and have someone with a surface grinder take is down a few thousandths just as easily as have the die shortened, I suppose. That does weaken the shell holder a little, but if it isn't much, it would work. Either way, the die or shell holder would then be something you keep associated with that particular chamber.

[F. Guffey]

Either way, the die or shell holder would then be something you keep associated with that particular chamber.

Or the reloader could make another set of shell holders that would go to the (-) negative side of ZERO instead of the positive side. I could do that, I have a butt grinder but instead of throwing all of that money into shell holders I use the feeler gage, my feeler gages last a long time and then one day if I decide to adjust the valves/check valve stem/lifter clearance while the engine is running the feeler gages does not last very long but to me it s a small price to pay when I want to know if the lifter will bleed down or pump up (adjust).

F. Guffey

[GeauxTide]

When I had my ER Shaw barrel installed long ago, they throated it for 100gr bullets. I had the same problem you're having with 30-06 full sized cases and 120-140 bullets. Had it throated for 140 Sierra GK BT and no more problems. With normally seated 140 Hornadys, I get 2935 at the Chrony. Someone talked about 270 cases, which have different length and base to shoulder measurements. Use 25-06 and 30-06. I found the 25 cases easier to form than the 30. In those days, I used H-4831 back then, but IMR4831 and RL19 might be good now.

[F. Guffey]

Someone talked about 270 cases, which have different length and base to shoulder measurements.

They have the same case body length meaning from the case head to the shoulder. The Winchester is longer from the end of the neck to the case head by .041" mening the 270W has a longer neck and the shoulder/neck juncture is ahead of the 30/06 shoulder/neck juncture, And then there is the head space gage, I can use one gage for both chambers.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

the 270W has a longer neck

But, not by much, the 270 W neck is .011" longer than the neck on the 30/06, the distance between the two shoulder junctures is another matter.

F. Guffey

[hooligan1]

I use 2506 brass and run it through my 6.506 die, no trimming involved so its nicer for me than .270 w.
I also set my seating die up with a nickle between the shell holder and die and then adjust seater stem for seating depth.
This is easiest for me....

[HiBC]

Hooligan : I'm not asking this to argue.I'm open to the possibility of learning something from you.
I realize this "neck up" is only about .007. Not real challenging.In fairness,the .270 neck down is only .013. Also easy.

I have necked up from .338 to .375,and from .308 to .358.In the case of the former cartridge,its a .338 Win mag necked up to .375.I got MUCH better results running .458 brass through a .416 Taylor die,then a .375 Taylor die. Great results.
I got generally lousy results making .35 Whelen.I COULD make brass,but it was ugly. I got excellent result blowing it out.
I have tried taking it in smaller incremental steps. In my experience,the brass in the neck does not stretch uniformly. One side will be weaker.All the stretch and thinning will take place in that zone.
Have you tried measuring neck case wall thickness for uniformity after necking up?
I've also had problems with the spindle deflecting.As a result,the neck/shoulder junction is visibly eccentric.

I have seen similar results in Rifle and Handloader magazine,in photos of wildcat case forming.The advice was "That goes away when you shoot it"

IMO,"Maybe,sort of ,but not really."

IMO,neck uniformity and cartridge concentricity are crucial to accuracy.

Neck turning is an answer,but its a PITA.Also,"necked up necks are already thin.IMO,these two factors outweigh trimming.

I have had excellent results for uniform neck thickness and concentricity by blowing out with COW.
But I'd always rather neck down than up.

After all that,my point: Do you have anything special you do besides just lubing the case and running it through the die?
Is there something I can learn from you to get better results for myself?

I get it that .257 to .264 is a small step and it might work fine for you.

[F. Guffey]

The Redding Competition shell holders are to compensate for long headspace.

Unlike SAAMI and one other reloader on this forum reloaders have two head spaces, one is 'case head space' and the other is the chamber head space. Same thing with head space tools, I do not have a case tool that measures head space of the case. There are reloaders that purchased digital head space gages that were comparators or dial indicator stands

In the perfect world the case is sized to minimum length from the shoulder to the case head,; the chamber, in the perfect world is go-gage length from the datum to the bolt face.

KEEPING UP: There is .005" difference in length between the 30/06 go-gage length chamber and the minimum length sized case, in a very small group of reloaders the difference in length is called clearance.

Fan of philosophies: I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel, I reduce case travel with the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. I only have one set of Redding Competition shell holders, the set is the #6 set for belted cases, I have never used it but I have it for a JIC situations and I only paid $5.00 for the set; if I could get someone to think about it, for me, it is like paying $1.00 each for shell holder blanks.

There are two shell holders between case minimum length and a go gage length chamber. Before Redding Competition shell holders I had the option of 5 different case length between minimum length and go-gage length when using feeler gages, Before the competition shell holder I had 28 options between a -.10 short chamber and an .018"+ chamber that is .004" longer than a field reject length chamber when using a feeler gage.

[HiBC]

Mr Guffey:
I understand that the term "headspace" applies to the rifle only.Its about the breech face to the chamber feature that limits the case depth into the chamber...as defined by the datum feature on the SAAMI drawing.
I get that.
I fully understand,and prefer the term "Head Clearance" as it applies to the space available between the case head and the breech face.
And,on a good day,you and I may be able to use those terms productively in a conversation.

A problem I/we have,is when someone says "I'm a newby and I made bullets and they don't fit in my gun"

We have to start someplace.

Its real easy to sit back and drop critical comments that don't have any useful information in them.
Datums? I make datums.I'm the only handloader in the world that knows.I form then I fire.
What can anyone do with that? Its just ego.Often it serves only to confuse the OP.

I seldom feel like giving some technical lecture on"head clearance"

Maybe we need a sticky "Go read the sticky on headspace versus head clearance" That would be great.

In the meantime,I'm going to fudge,because I'm trying to communicate an idea.

IMO,its easier to talk about "For lack of a better term,I'll call it "cartridge headspace"

If you want to type the classroom lecture every thread,knock yourself out.

In the mean time,I'll try to get a useful explaination across that about .002 head clearance is good for a bolt gun,every chamber,die,and press is different,and here are some tools,not the only tools,you can use to get there.

I get your feeler gauges. Good idea.I used to use them shellholder to die.for something repeatable.Ilike a bushing gauge better.Is measures results,not setup.

I like the feeler gauges to make discoveries. Even centerfire rifle hunting loads,Iusually load at least 100rds.I don't want to fumble with a work around.

[F. Guffey]

We have to start someplace.

That someplace you talk about does not include making this stuff up just to make it simpler. I would suggest a reloader start out with nomenclature, I would also suggest any reloader study the glossary of terms.

And then we have many reloaders that seem to be desperate of attention. and then there are those that believe if they say something nice they will pass out.

My cases do not have head space, and then there is that cute saying about the firing pin driving the case forward until the shoulder hits the shoulder of the chamber; and I say "think about it" and I will tell you that never works and one of the reloaders repeating that cute story are not new to reloading. I keep saying there has to be more to it than that but the responses I get back goes something like; "NO, that is it, that is all there is".

And then they made up another story about the firing pin shortening the case .005", if the case starts out at minimum length in a go gage length chamber that would be .010" difference in length before the primer gets everything started.

And then? I ask for someone to explain, rookies included how any of this is possible and I ask how is it possible the shoulder on my case does not move when all other reloaders go forward before firing and back when sized; it seems they get angry at me because they do not have a clue and it is easier to make this stuff up.

And then you forget, we had one member call SAAMI, he insisted the case had head space, I am sure they were impressed with his pedigree but they informed him the case does not have head space.

F. Guffey

[Don Fischer]

I make my 6.5x06 case'e from 280 Rem or, right now 270 Win case's. I don't use 30-06 case's because I have a 30-06. I have a 25-06 so I don't used them either. I read a lot that it's better to neck up from 25-06 but I've never necked anything up.

Have you tried chanbering a just re-sized case? If your using once fired case's could be the shoulder isn't getting set back. I start when mking mine by manufacturer instruction's FL sizing. From there I size the neck down but not to the shoulder with the FL die. Shoot till the MTY case won't chamber any more and from there size down maybe 1/4 turn at a time till I can no longer feel the neck rub. Get there and lock the die in and never move it again. Size down new or once fired case's and it won't matter with the die already set to your chamber.

So my first though is get the case's itself right and then work on the bullet.

[oldscot3]

Fellas, if you go back to post #21 I think you'll see where he checked out.

[F. Guffey]

Thanks for the input. Ended up taking the shellholder and grinding it down with a sanding disk and to make the die go farther down on the casing. Figured this out by chance today after going to the local gun store to get supplies and running into some older guys that do a lot of reloading. Now my casings fit great in the gun now to seat the bullets and head for the range. Thank you again for the help

Yes, you are correct, he figured it out all by himself and no one noticed he had no clue how much grinding was necessary. A reloader with a few shop skills can determine how much grinding would be necessary with a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head.

The same reloader could use a feeler gage between the top of the shell holder and bottom of he die when sizing cases for different lengths from the datum to the case head. That was done back before the Redding Competition shell holders and the Internet; it is still possible, a reloader with a little unitive could use the feeler gage to make a set of chamber gages, it is not my job to convince them it is possible.

F. Guffey

[hooligan1]

HiBC, I like the ease of using that case and necking up.
I usually anneal cases before changing their anatomy, which helps with uniformity.
Now you got me wondering about concentric and uniform neck thickness where I had not considered it.
The brass has performed nicely enough, and with that I dont go digging around for problems....but I proba ly could improve the end result if I did.......

[F. Guffey]

I took it out of the box in 2009. My RCIV Rock Chucker has to cam over some to get a full sizing as well.

I can tell by the responses no one knows and or understands 'CAM OVER'; I could suggest you contact RCBS but in my opinion you would be wasting your time.

There is something about 'cam over' that drives reloaders to the curb. In your statement you said; "My RCIV Rock Chucker has to cam over some to get a full sizing". the part reloaders do not understand about cam over is all of the full length sizing happens before cam over. After cam over the ram changes directions. The good part? Before the reloader can remove the case from the top of the ram the reloader must lower the ram, On a cam over press the ram must go up before it can be lowered, I know it is a mind boggling thing but the case gets full length sized twice in a cam over press.

I have three Rock Chuckers, I do not have a Rock Chucker that cams over.

F. Guffey

[Unclenick]

Mr. Guffey is right about that terminology. Cam-over means driving the handle past top dead center of the ram stroke like a valve cam lobe reaching peak depression of a valve and then going past it. It gives you theoretically infinite mechanical advantage as you pass through the peak position of the ram. That means it also gives you the mechanical advantage needed to damage the press, so many presses have stops on them to prevent cam-over from happening. The Lee presses all do. I don't have a Rock Chucker, but understand they do as well. My Forster Co-ax has tabs cast into it to prevent cam-over, too.

I think what most people mistakenly misuse the term "cam-over" to mean is driving the press ram past the initial point of contact with the sizing die mouth so that the press ram compresses the shell holder against the die mouth, slightly stretching the press frame like a very stiff spring. That compression ensures pushing the brass is as far into the die as shell holder deck will allow. Without at least a little of that compression—if you only screw the die in far enough to just kiss the deck of the shell holder—when you size a case, the brass insertion force also stretches the press frame a little and you can see that in the top position (handle against its cam-over-prevention stops) a crack of light is visible between the shell holder deck and the sizing die mouth. Only by turning in the die enough to make up for the press frame stretching by the brass's required insertion force into it do you get full resizing of the case. Usually 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn past the kiss point will do it on an iron press, though Lee notes needing up to 3/4 turn with their lighter aluminum frame presses. (Aluminum is easier to stretch than an equal yield strength iron casting (aluminum's modulus of elasticity is about 1/3 that of steel).

[HiBC]

Mr Guffey:

That someplace you talk about does not include making this stuff up just to make it simpler. I would suggest a reloader start out with nomenclature, I would also suggest any reloader study the glossary of terms.

Oridinarily,I would make no mention of it....your discussion of "camover" in regard to an RCBS RockChucker press.

But since you insist on proper terminology,the press does not cam over because it has no cam.

It has toggles. The term is "toggle over".

Plastic injection molding machines,for example,the German Aurburg,utilize toggles.
While mold setup is typically done similarly to the reloading press,kissoff plus a nudge.the mold press tiebars provide a specific amout of clamp at a given tie bar stretch.( Tiebars would be part of the press frame,similar to the posts on an old Behr H-press or the Co-Ax)

The proper way to set the platen for desired clamp,up to maximum,is to set up dial indicators on the ends of the tie bars to measure actual tie bar stretch.

It might be interesting to setup an indicator across the "C" or "O" of a typical press.

Remember RCBS is an acronym for "Rock Chucker Bullet Swage" The Rock Chucker is over built to use bullet swage dies. That's why threaded bushing is in the top.of the press. Pull that out,and Corbin swage dies screw in.

I have a massive old Lyman "C" press with the same bushing that is built to swage.

The swaging presses should not be challenged by resizing operations.

[F. Guffey]

I think what most people mistakenly misuse the term "cam-over"

It was not RCBS, in the beginning they said they had a press that cammed over and they said they had a press that did not cam over. The problem was with reloaders, they could no get their hands out of their pockets, after that there is this thing with being lazy; to determine cam over is to determine how much cam over the press had. Before RCBS was a company that made plyers, some folks call the plyers vise grips, the company that owns the design called the design leaver lock. And then there was another tool that secured heavy loads like drill pipe to a truck bed; The slang name for that tool is boomer. Nothing funny about it, the leaver had to be secured because it was another leaver lock mechanism.

And then there is 'bump', if the press is a cam over press it is a bump press. If the press is not a cam over press it is not a bump press; I suggest reloaders read the instructions.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

I don't have a Rock Chucker, but understand they do as well.

Again, all a reloader has to do is remove the die from the press and then lower the handle whole looking down at the top of the ram from above. When the ram reaches the top it does not stop and change directions, instead the ram is kicked forward because the linkage goes into a bind at the bottom, the bind causes the ram to be kicked backwards at the bottom.

I know, there are reloaders that do not believe that is fair, they want to know what keeps the ram straight when sizing a case; and I say again, the case keeps the ram straight, the case guides the ram straight up. I have asked if there is a reloader that knows how thick a case head is when measured from the cup above the web to the case head; I get two answers, one is 'no answer' or just simply 'NO'.

I have a few 30/06 cases with case head thicknesses of .260", those are my favorite cases, the 2nd most favorites 30/06 cases are the cases that are too long from the shoulder to the case head to allow the bolt to clowe.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

And then? One day I decided I did not like the ideal of my Rock Chucker parts banging into each other so I took a few files and fixed-it. I fixed my Rock Chucker. I removed enough metal from the linkage to allow the ram to cam over, I knowm there are reloaders that are reading this that are getting dizzy and about to pass out.

The dizzy ones do not understand I am the reloader that adjust the die to the shell holder, I can adjust the die to the shell holder without the linkage getting tangled up and then there is the 'bump twice' thing, I understand 'bump' and it has nothing to do with moving the shoulder back

F. Guffey