IDPA... I rock at static drills, but tank at movement.

MLeake · August 21, 2011, 06:00 PM

Ok, I need to work on my move and shoot skills. Went out today, and dropped zero points on the two static courses of fire, but then shot like a monkey on the two moving courses.

Well, the retreat and shoot wasn't too bad... dropped 1 second each on two of the three targets. But my triangle absolutely stank, at least by my standards.

Here's the retreat, shooting three targets, using my M&P45:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1101987...37949589608450

The triangle was all over the place. Sorry, no video.

Any tips for training to shoot with lateral and diagonal movement? My only plan, for now, is to use my Model 13 (so I don't have to hunt around the pasture for brass) and set up a triangle drill in the pasture and just shoot the hell out of it. My IDPA RO recommended I bend my knees more.

Any other useful hints?

Thanks,

M

Any .45 · August 21, 2011, 07:28 PM

When I started IDPA I wasn't really good at the moving drills, just like you I dropped maybe a point on every other target. I found that just practicing movement with and an empty gun helps alot. I would setup targets and move backward, forward and in any direction I cold think and just dry fire and watch how much my gun moved and towards then end of the day I would shoot 50-100 rounds of live ammo while running the same drills after about a couple weekends or so I was much improved, I did the same thing for drawing, shooting on my back, side, etc and shooting under objects such as vehicles and tables, also did all this with my shotgun and rifle for three gun.

Dennis1209 · August 21, 2011, 07:37 PM

Are you a member of IDPA? I just joined and two days ago I received my membership packet. In it is a DVD that covers just about everything including movement. Movement (I should say hobble) is a big issue with me, as I have bad knees. The DVD is excellent! I'm looking forward to shooting the KY-TN regionals October 1st. It's a fun and great way to improve your SD skills and learn from some of the best.

Great advise above! That's what I'm doing (less live fire) and it seems to be helping.

Discern · August 21, 2011, 07:47 PM

Here are some tips by Todd Jarrett that may help you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncg9iFgT7GA

MrBorland · August 21, 2011, 08:14 PM

The guy in the vid (you?) is moving too much, IMO. Recall, "movement" just means your feet have to move. It doesn't mean you necessarily need to move at a certain pace, or be at a certain place at a certain time.

Also, the shooter in the vid could benefit from a more aggressive stance & grip. He's leaning back and letting the gun control him. Way too much muzzle flip, and he's having to deliberately re-establish a new sight picture de novo with every transition & shot. It's a time & accuracy killer.

Live fire is good, but so is dry fire, so long as you're watching your sight picture while you move.

Discern · August 21, 2011, 08:46 PM

You can see the bottom of the backstrap. If the strong hand covers the entire backstrap on the grip, there will be less muzzle flip. I suspect that part of the recoil is going into the thumb knuckle of the strong hand instead of having the web of the hand absorb the recoil. IMO, you should not see any part of the grip when a two handed grip is used. If you have alignment, the muzzle flip is greatly reduced.

The shooter also should flex their knees more and walk more like they are walking a narrow plank. It also appears the shooter is raising their left foot and leg more than the right leg and foot. You want to be balanced to help prevent the firearm from going side to side when moving.

MLeake · August 21, 2011, 09:15 PM

Mr. Borland, the guy in the video is me. I'm still new at IDPA, and don't have any practice at all at shooting while walking backwards. In military training, I was taught to retreat to cover while others fired in suppression, then fire in suppression while they retreated. Then again I wasn't infantry.

So I need to develop the pace, and fix stance. That makes sense. I have a much more forward stance when not moving, so I need to figure out how to incorporate it with rearward or lateral motion. That also makes sense.

As far as muzzle flip goes, how much do you think I should actually expect from a .45? Ammo was factory 185gr FMJ.

Discern, I'm kind of confused about seeing "the bottom of the backstrap." I've been taught the problems occur when you see the top of the backstrap, and that a high grip is the best way to minimize flip and any downward pulling effect from the trigger pull. Could you clarify what you meant?

Thanks for the inputs.

FM12 · August 21, 2011, 09:38 PM

Walk smoothly, heel to toe, no bouncing up and down as you move. Smooth is what to work for.

moose_nukelz · August 21, 2011, 09:46 PM

Bend your legs and squat some more, tighten your core and walk. Practice at home (unloaded) aiming at something. Your upper body is going to have to pick up the slack for not having a stable shooting platform.

oldkim · August 21, 2011, 09:49 PM

Hints:

1) You are way too upright. Your upper torso was too rigid and fully extended. Good for static shooting but not for moving.

You need to use your knees more and lower your center of gravity. Basically you need to drop a bit so your knees and torso can absorb movement and also increases your ability to move in all directions.

Also your arms and shoulders are locked - this can be good or bad but just depends on what you are used to. The ability to free them up will also let you absorb movement.

Overall like a tactical posture... shooting on the move feels different to those newer to moving. Meaning it's going to feel and look odd to you.

Watch how the experts in IDPA/USPSA move. They start upright but drop down a few notches when moving.

Hope this helps...

Discern · August 21, 2011, 09:51 PM

MLeake, I would be glad to explain about the bottom of the backstrap.

First, you are correct that you want to have a high grip, making sure the slide will clear the strong hand. Having a high grip helps to control recoil.

For many in not all shooters it also helps if the entire backstrap is covered by the strong hand. The grip of the strong hand is not a death grip. However, when the entire backstrap is covered by the strong hand, the pressure provided by the fingers of the strong hand on the frontstrap puts the entire backstrap into the web of the strong hand. This helps to provide a more stable grip with less slack. When the support hand is added, the grip becomes even more stable. No portion of the pistol grip is visible.

Watch this clip of Todd Jarrett and hit pause when he starts shooting the reactive steel targets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

Notice how the entire backstrap is covered by the web of the strong hand. Also notice how the recoil is going into the web of his strong hand and not the knuckle of his strong hand thumb. When Todd Jarrett uses a two handed grip, you will not see any portion of the pistol grip. The entire grip is supported by his strong and support hand. There are no areas of the pistol grip that is not in direct contact with either the strong hand or support hand.

Many if not most shooters with military or LE background use the same grip you used in your video. When they are shown the method used by Todd Jarrett they ask why they were not taught this by their military or LE instructors. Typical results after they adopt the change is they are more accurate and quicker. The also have said it is more pleasant to shoot (web of the strong hand is absorbing the recoil and not directly going into the knuckle of the strong hand thumb).

If you try this grip, give it some time to adjust. Let me know what you think if you try it.

NYC Drew · August 22, 2011, 05:59 AM

I don't know how to quote, but FM, Moose and Old Kim are all correct in their assessment.

Before I render assistance, I always try to figure out what folks' goals are. What is yours? Competition? Sharpen the training edge? A little bit of both?

If it's more training or a little bit of both more than competition, how you approach these drills (mindset) has to match your goal objective.

In short, if you were being shot at, or had to shoot at someone while moving to cover/being a difficult to hit target/creating a diversion/opening up fields of fire...you would never move that way, even without one second of prior training.

So, think about what your ultimate objective is when you do exercises as these.

...Insert sheepish grin here > If you are doing this from a competitive based perspective, I have little of anything I perceive to be of value to add!

MLeake · August 22, 2011, 07:39 AM

Lots of good inputs, guys, thanks. Now I need to try to incorporate them, plus some PM feedback I received.

Ironically, if this had been a contact weapon takeaway drill, I suspect my backward movement would have been a lot smoother - I am used to those. Looking back, though, that took a lot of work. Guess I shouldn't be surprised that adding the variable of shooting has complicated things.

I will work on your suggestions this week, and post again after I have had a chance to re-program some muscle memory.

And NYC Drew, I would like better competitive performance, but practical is always higher priority.

g.willikers · August 22, 2011, 02:45 PM

Try practicing with a water bottle, instead of a gun.
When the water doesn't slosh around in the bottle, you are moving smoothly.

Slopemeno · August 22, 2011, 04:33 PM

Have you heard the phrase "Groucho walk"? That pretty much sums up what works for me.

Also- I was wondering if you had any sort of front strap treatment, like grip tape or checkering?

Ambishot · August 29, 2011, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Walk smoothly, heel to toe, no bouncing up and down as you move. Smooth is what to work for.

As FM12 stated, you don't want any sort of bouncing motion of the gun while moving. Easier said than done, but GREAT advice!

I just got into IDPA, myself and moving while shooting is my current "bane of existence."

moose_nukelz · August 29, 2011, 10:30 PM

You will know you are crouching/walking low enough when your leg and butt muscles start burning

Don P · August 30, 2011, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Movement (I should say hobble) is a big issue with me, as I have bad knees

Welcome to the bad knee club and competition. Like stated if possible practice around the house with the EMPTY GUN moving and trigger pull. What really gets me is when you start out on the old hurting knees and have to get up and move and shoot on the clock. Great for folks with good knees, bad for us bad knee dudes. I like the thoughts that were in a article in the 3 rd. quarter Tactical Journal about the possible use of knee pads ( hard shelled) outside the pants. I like the thought of change in the rules about movement after the shooter takes a knee. Personally I see no shooter advantage using external hard shell knee pads if it means going home without hurting knees from kneeling. It would only add to shooter cost if one needed knee pads. What say the members?

MLeake · August 30, 2011, 09:38 AM

Sadly, I have not been able to get out and try these tips yet, as it has been ridiculously hot here for the past week, 92-98 range. But it's also been extremely humid, so I've had that going for me, too.

Ok, I could have gone out and sweated, but I never did like saunas.

I have, however, been going to the dojo quite regularly. It hit me, while we were doing movement drills (both stepping and doing tenkans while carrying our training partners piggy-back), that I should just apply aikido/aikijutsu movement to shooting. Once it gets a bit less jungle-like here, I'll give that a shot.

August 21, 2011, 06:00 PM	#1
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	IDPA... I rock at static drills, but tank at movement. Ok, I need to work on my move and shoot skills. Went out today, and dropped zero points on the two static courses of fire, but then shot like a monkey on the two moving courses. Well, the retreat and shoot wasn't too bad... dropped 1 second each on two of the three targets. But my triangle absolutely stank, at least by my standards. Here's the retreat, shooting three targets, using my M&P45: https://picasaweb.google.com/1101987...37949589608450 The triangle was all over the place. Sorry, no video. Any tips for training to shoot with lateral and diagonal movement? My only plan, for now, is to use my Model 13 (so I don't have to hunt around the pasture for brass) and set up a triangle drill in the pasture and just shoot the hell out of it. My IDPA RO recommended I bend my knees more. Any other useful hints? Thanks, M Last edited by MLeake; August 21, 2011 at 06:41 PM.

August 21, 2011, 07:28 PM	#2
Any .45 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2004 Location: SW FLORIDA, USA Posts: 604	When I started IDPA I wasn't really good at the moving drills, just like you I dropped maybe a point on every other target. I found that just practicing movement with and an empty gun helps alot. I would setup targets and move backward, forward and in any direction I cold think and just dry fire and watch how much my gun moved and towards then end of the day I would shoot 50-100 rounds of live ammo while running the same drills after about a couple weekends or so I was much improved, I did the same thing for drawing, shooting on my back, side, etc and shooting under objects such as vehicles and tables, also did all this with my shotgun and rifle for three gun. __________________ Foster and polish The warior spirit While serving in the world; Illuminate the path According to your inner light" "Spring forth from the Great Earth; Billow like Great Waves; Stand like a tree, sit like a rock; Use One to strike All. Learn and forget! " "At the instant A warrior Confronts a foe, All things Come into focus" Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) Founder of Aikido

August 21, 2011, 09:46 PM	#9
moose_nukelz Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2011 Posts: 125	Bend your legs and squat some more, tighten your core and walk. Practice at home (unloaded) aiming at something. Your upper body is going to have to pick up the slack for not having a stable shooting platform. __________________ Bust em

August 21, 2011, 09:49 PM	#10
oldkim Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2008 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 462	Shoot on the move... Hints: 1) You are way too upright. Your upper torso was too rigid and fully extended. Good for static shooting but not for moving. You need to use your knees more and lower your center of gravity. Basically you need to drop a bit so your knees and torso can absorb movement and also increases your ability to move in all directions. Also your arms and shoulders are locked - this can be good or bad but just depends on what you are used to. The ability to free them up will also let you absorb movement. Overall like a tactical posture... shooting on the move feels different to those newer to moving. Meaning it's going to feel and look odd to you. Watch how the experts in IDPA/USPSA move. They start upright but drop down a few notches when moving. Hope this helps... __________________ "Shoot Safetly, Shoot Often and Share Your Sport." Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA Check out my new website: www.shootonthemove.org

August 22, 2011, 02:45 PM	#14
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Try practicing with a water bottle, instead of a gun. When the water doesn't slosh around in the bottle, you are moving smoothly. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

August 21, 2011, 07:37 PM	#3
Dennis1209 Member Join Date: July 8, 2011 Location: NW Tennessee Posts: 93	Are you a member of IDPA? I just joined and two days ago I received my membership packet. In it is a DVD that covers just about everything including movement. Movement (I should say hobble) is a big issue with me, as I have bad knees. The DVD is excellent! I'm looking forward to shooting the KY-TN regionals October 1st. It's a fun and great way to improve your SD skills and learn from some of the best. Great advise above! That's what I'm doing (less live fire) and it seems to be helping.

August 21, 2011, 07:47 PM	#4
Discern Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 471	Here are some tips by Todd Jarrett that may help you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncg9iFgT7GA

August 21, 2011, 08:14 PM	#5
MrBorland Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 2,614	The guy in the vid (you?) is moving too much, IMO. Recall, "movement" just means your feet have to move. It doesn't mean you necessarily need to move at a certain pace, or be at a certain place at a certain time. Also, the shooter in the vid could benefit from a more aggressive stance & grip. He's leaning back and letting the gun control him. Way too much muzzle flip, and he's having to deliberately re-establish a new sight picture de novo with every transition & shot. It's a time & accuracy killer. Live fire is good, but so is dry fire, so long as you're watching your sight picture while you move.

August 21, 2011, 08:46 PM	#6
Discern Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 471	You can see the bottom of the backstrap. If the strong hand covers the entire backstrap on the grip, there will be less muzzle flip. I suspect that part of the recoil is going into the thumb knuckle of the strong hand instead of having the web of the hand absorb the recoil. IMO, you should not see any part of the grip when a two handed grip is used. If you have alignment, the muzzle flip is greatly reduced. The shooter also should flex their knees more and walk more like they are walking a narrow plank. It also appears the shooter is raising their left foot and leg more than the right leg and foot. You want to be balanced to help prevent the firearm from going side to side when moving.

August 21, 2011, 09:15 PM	#7
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Mr. Borland, the guy in the video is me. I'm still new at IDPA, and don't have any practice at all at shooting while walking backwards. In military training, I was taught to retreat to cover while others fired in suppression, then fire in suppression while they retreated. Then again I wasn't infantry. So I need to develop the pace, and fix stance. That makes sense. I have a much more forward stance when not moving, so I need to figure out how to incorporate it with rearward or lateral motion. That also makes sense. As far as muzzle flip goes, how much do you think I should actually expect from a .45? Ammo was factory 185gr FMJ. Discern, I'm kind of confused about seeing "the bottom of the backstrap." I've been taught the problems occur when you see the top of the backstrap, and that a high grip is the best way to minimize flip and any downward pulling effect from the trigger pull. Could you clarify what you meant? Thanks for the inputs.

August 21, 2011, 09:38 PM	#8
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Walk smoothly, heel to toe, no bouncing up and down as you move. Smooth is what to work for.

August 21, 2011, 09:51 PM	#11
Discern Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 471	MLeake, I would be glad to explain about the bottom of the backstrap. First, you are correct that you want to have a high grip, making sure the slide will clear the strong hand. Having a high grip helps to control recoil. For many in not all shooters it also helps if the entire backstrap is covered by the strong hand. The grip of the strong hand is not a death grip. However, when the entire backstrap is covered by the strong hand, the pressure provided by the fingers of the strong hand on the frontstrap puts the entire backstrap into the web of the strong hand. This helps to provide a more stable grip with less slack. When the support hand is added, the grip becomes even more stable. No portion of the pistol grip is visible. Watch this clip of Todd Jarrett and hit pause when he starts shooting the reactive steel targets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48 Notice how the entire backstrap is covered by the web of the strong hand. Also notice how the recoil is going into the web of his strong hand and not the knuckle of his strong hand thumb. When Todd Jarrett uses a two handed grip, you will not see any portion of the pistol grip. The entire grip is supported by his strong and support hand. There are no areas of the pistol grip that is not in direct contact with either the strong hand or support hand. Many if not most shooters with military or LE background use the same grip you used in your video. When they are shown the method used by Todd Jarrett they ask why they were not taught this by their military or LE instructors. Typical results after they adopt the change is they are more accurate and quicker. The also have said it is more pleasant to shoot (web of the strong hand is absorbing the recoil and not directly going into the knuckle of the strong hand thumb). If you try this grip, give it some time to adjust. Let me know what you think if you try it.

August 22, 2011, 05:59 AM	#12
NYC Drew Member Join Date: January 3, 2005 Posts: 23	I don't know how to quote, but FM, Moose and Old Kim are all correct in their assessment. Before I render assistance, I always try to figure out what folks' goals are. What is yours? Competition? Sharpen the training edge? A little bit of both? If it's more training or a little bit of both more than competition, how you approach these drills (mindset) has to match your goal objective. In short, if you were being shot at, or had to shoot at someone while moving to cover/being a difficult to hit target/creating a diversion/opening up fields of fire...you would never move that way, even without one second of prior training. So, think about what your ultimate objective is when you do exercises as these. ...Insert sheepish grin here > If you are doing this from a competitive based perspective, I have little of anything I perceive to be of value to add!

August 22, 2011, 07:39 AM	#13
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Lots of good inputs, guys, thanks. Now I need to try to incorporate them, plus some PM feedback I received. Ironically, if this had been a contact weapon takeaway drill, I suspect my backward movement would have been a lot smoother - I am used to those. Looking back, though, that took a lot of work. Guess I shouldn't be surprised that adding the variable of shooting has complicated things. I will work on your suggestions this week, and post again after I have had a chance to re-program some muscle memory. And NYC Drew, I would like better competitive performance, but practical is always higher priority.

August 22, 2011, 04:33 PM	#15
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	Have you heard the phrase "Groucho walk"? That pretty much sums up what works for me. Also- I was wondering if you had any sort of front strap treatment, like grip tape or checkering?

August 29, 2011, 10:30 PM	#17
moose_nukelz Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2011 Posts: 125	You will know you are crouching/walking low enough when your leg and butt muscles start burning __________________ Bust em

August 30, 2011, 09:38 AM	#19
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Sadly, I have not been able to get out and try these tips yet, as it has been ridiculously hot here for the past week, 92-98 range. But it's also been extremely humid, so I've had that going for me, too. Ok, I could have gone out and sweated, but I never did like saunas. I have, however, been going to the dojo quite regularly. It hit me, while we were doing movement drills (both stepping and doing tenkans while carrying our training partners piggy-back), that I should just apply aikido/aikijutsu movement to shooting. Once it gets a bit less jungle-like here, I'll give that a shot.