20" Barreled AR15 Impractical for Close Quarters?

[Model12Win]

Someone recommended to keep the 20" and get more training.

Good answer. Really, while a 16" might be "mo betta", a 20" can do the job.

Just ask the Marines who still rock A4s for breach and clears in Afghan.

[marine6680]

Agtman... Dude... Think before YOU post...

Firing a handgun indoors unsuppressed will cause damage to your hearing.

Any firearm fired indoors without hearing protection will cause damage to your hearing.

The sound levels of 5.56 from a 16in barrel are around 160db, and from a 10.5in barrel they are around 162db. That is a 2db difference... Yes dbs are logarithmic, but that difference is still minor in the grand scheme of things.

Funny thing... 9mm handguns are actually louder at the shooter's ear than a 16in 5.56 rifle. They are about 5db louder on average. Yes, confined indoors, the larger volume of powder in the rifle cartridge will make reverberation/echo louder. I don't have any db info for indoors for either. I don't think peak db would increase much, but the perception of the sound is definitely different.

All are above the safe level for impulse sound...


O'Heir...

It has been shown that handguns penetrate walls easier than 223/5.56 when using standard HP ammo in the 9mm and 55-60gr varmint type bullets in the 223/5.56.

This AR over penetration misconception needs to die... The slower speed and generally higher mass of handgun rounds, means they will stay together as a solid object. For 223/5.56... The higher speed and lower weight, coupled with a bullet construction designed to break up easily, mean they break apart when they hit a wall. They still penetrate but come out as deformed pieces. (This only applies to the varmint style bullets, and the defense bullets based on them. Other bullet types will hold together better and penetrate about like a pistol round)

[jmr40]

A 20" barrel might not be ideal, but is far from impractical. A handgun would be the 1st thing I'd reach for indoors but I do have a shotgun and 16" barreled AR available if the situation calls for it. If I had a 20" AR I'd make it work. Compared to a handgun there isn't that much difference between 16" and 20".

If I have to shoot an intruder, indoors or outdoors my hearing is not something I'll be thinking about. If there is any damage I'll just have to deal with it later and will be grateful I'm alive to deal with it.

I've been present twice when a 45 ACP and a 357 mag were fired indoors with no hearing protection. And I never wore hearing protection at all until I was in my 30's. I'm 60 now and have no measurable hearing loss related to noise. I am deaf in one ear, but due to a medical condition. The other ear is still fine after all these years. Not that I advise anyone else doing what I did, I do wear hearing protection all the time now to preserve my good ear. But firing a gun indoors with no hearing protection isn't a guarantee of hearing loss.

[M1Rifle30-06]

I live out in the country and have brick walls, so I'm not much concerned about overpenetration, but it is still a factor I consider.

From the testing I've seen with ballistics gel both with and without barriers, you can actually get less chance of overpenetration with the correct bullets in 5.56/.223. I've started keeping Hornady TAP in my magazines.

Out of curiosity, I compared my AR15A4 next to my Arsenal SGL20 (with the AK74 style brake), and they are nearly the same overall length. If I put a collapsible stock on the AR, it'd actually be shorter.

And yes, the Mossberg is indeed a 9 shot, not 8 shot. After-work brain fart! It's been a while since I've shot it.

I'm not too concerned about the noise of a shotgun loaded with 00 buck vs an AR15, but that the 20" AR would have less muzzle flash and blast than a shorter version is an advantage I had not considered.

[marine6680]

The difference between the 20 and 16 for flash and noise is minor. A good flash hider will help with the flash.

A comp/break inside is not fun. The sound levels at the shooters ear are higher, and echos/reverb will be more direclty returned to your ears. The reverb inside makes a louder perceived sound due to the fact that the sound is more drawn out in time.


Training is more important than equipment more often than not, but good training and equipment more suited to a given task is better still.

I would keep your rifle as is... A good 20in rifle with fixed stock is a nice thing to have around. I have a soft spot for the A2 style ARs due to being issued one in the military.

Train well with your current rifle, and maybe pick up a 16im carbine later. If you want shorter, an AR pistol with 11.5 or 12.5in barrel is best for such things. Below 10.5in basically reduces the 223/5.56 round's performance too much. The benifit to cost balance is thrown out of a favorable position. The extra inch or two of 11.5-12.5in barrels costs little in maneuverability, but the flash and perceived loudness go down a good bit, and the performance of the bullets is improved from the added velocity.

If you go this route, you can purchase separate uppers and lowers to spread out the cost. And it can save some cash. PSA lowers are usually pretty low cost but if you pay attention to the specs, you can get one built to milspec for a good price. Then throw on your favorite upper. Or find a lower cost PSA upper if you want. Their stuff is well made, just pick one with the rights specs and features. You can add on a good RDS and weapon light and have a great HD firearm.


As far as penetration and brick walls... That's all well and good if you live alone, but if there are others in the home, even pets, it may be a larger concern.

[44 AMP]

Either use a handgun, or run the AR suppressed. You'll still kill the burglar or home invader(s), but at least you'll be able to hear and respond to all the investigating officers' questions afterward.

You'll need that hearing, at your trial. If your stated objective is known to be to "kill the burglar or home invader(s)", expect to be going to jail, and don't be surprised if you go on trial for murder.

It has happened and people HAVE been convicted for murder resulting in out of a "self defense shooting".

SO, leaving aside, for the moment, the arguments about using a 5.56 for home defense (noise, penetration etc) we are left with the basic discussion of "long gun" vs "short gun" and "short guns" (below the Federal length limits - barrel length OR overall length) they are NFA regulated items.

Besides the cost of NFA weapons, there is also the WAIT for approval. I have no idea the wait time for suppressors, but I know a friend who went the SBR route. He got approval 10 months (to the day) from the time he applied. Later on, he decided he had to sell the gun, and at last check, he was up to 8 months, waiting for govt approval to SELL it.

Is that kind of wait worth it, to get a slightly shorter rifle?? Might be for you, isn't for me.

A couple of other points to consider, while you can buy that shorty AR upper complete and ready to use, and have it shipped to you overnight, you can't put it on a lower UNTIL you get govt approval. And, if you own an AR you can't have the shorty upper in your possession before getting govt approval without risking prosecution for "constructive possession".
So, there are other considerations to SBRs for civilian self defense other than just how handy they are in tight quarters.

To me, if I felt a rifle to be the right choice, I'd live with the 20" just fine. On he other hand, I'm not ever likely to do CQB or house clearing, so my opinion is just that. Back in the day when I was likely to have to do that, we had issued M16A1s, and somehow, we managed.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

From the testing I've seen with ballistics gel both with and without barriers, you can actually get less chance of overpenetration with the correct bullets in 5.56/.223. I've started keeping Hornady TAP in my magazines.

On that note, Hornady’s TAP line is their “Tactical Applications” brand and includes limited penetration bullets, barrier-blind bullets, and their 75gr T2 bullet. Stuff labeled “barrier-blind” is going to penetrate more. The 75gr T2, in theory, could penetrate more if it failed to yaw but I haven’t ever seen that.

[pete2]

That would depend on how close quarters are.

[marine6680]

As far as the SBR thing...

That's what AR pistols are for. Equiped with a brace and it's a usable substitute without the headache and legal limitations.


Hornady TAP is good ammo with different bullet types and weights for different applications and desired performance characteristics. Choose one that fits your needs.

[O4L]

Originally Posted by marine6680

As far as the SBR thing...

That's what AR pistols are for. Equiped with a brace and it's a usable substitute without the headache and legal limitations.


Hornady TAP is good ammo with different bullet types and weights for different applications and desired performance characteristics. Choose one that fits your needs.

As far as home defense goes...do you think an AR pistol, in general, would be a better choice than a 14.5 or 16 inch rifle?

I know there are many different situations that one might need to use a firearm indoors but I'm in a small mobile home by myself, and at this time I can only afford one AR. I have a complete lower and I've been trying to decide how to complete the AR for home defense.

[marine6680]

Go with a 16in barrel.


Couple of reasons...

For one, the 16in is more versatile if you can only have one AR. The higher velocity makes it better for longer range shooting. Not a concern for HD, but there isn't such a huge advantage of a shorter barrel, to make it worthwhile as an only AR. So for a general use AR, 16in barrel.

Second... You already have a lower. I don't know if you assembled it yourself or bought it as a complete lower. Either way... If it currently has a stock on it... You cannot legally put a barrel on it shorter than 16in. Not unless you register it under the NFA, wait months for approval, and pay the tax stamp fee. You cannot simply remove the stock and claim it is a pistol now.

Here is the thing... You can not convert a rifle into a pistol. Not legally... Once a rifle, always a rifle... Ok this isn't strictly true, but from a practical sense, such a conversion is pointless. Basically you have to convert it into an SBR first, and then the need to convert it to a pistol is unnecessary. There is another more details around this, but I won't get into them right now, I am not 100% clear on them myself. Either way it's not as simple as just removing the stock.

So... If you bought the lower as a complete assembly with a stock, it was sold to you as a rifle lower and was classified as a rifle in the paperwork the manufacturer must maintain.

If you assembled the lower yourself from parts, and have added a stock to it... Technically you have already built it into a rifle and you cannot retroactively make it a pistol now... Even of you have not yet attached an upper. Before you added the stock a blank receiver is not classified as a rifle or a pistol. Technically it's a rifle as soon as the stock is mounted... So removing the stock and calling it a pistol... Well... Strictly not legal if it could be proven that you did such a thing.

[O4L]

Originally Posted by marine6680

Go with a 16in barrel.


Couple of reasons...

For one, the 16in is more versatile if you can only have one AR. The higher velocity makes it better for longer range shooting. Not a concern for HD, but there isn't such a huge advantage of a shorter barrel, to make it worthwhile as an only AR. So for a general use AR, 16in barrel.

Second... You already have a lower. I don't know if you assembled it yourself or bought it as a complete lower. Either way... If it currently has a stock on it... You cannot legally put a barrel on it shorter than 16in. Not unless you register it under the NFA, wait months for approval, and pay the tax stamp fee. You cannot simply remove the stock and claim it is a pistol now.

Here is the thing... You can not convert a rifle into a pistol. Not legally... Once a rifle, always a rifle... Ok this isn't strictly true, but from a practical sense, such a conversion is pointless. Basically you have to convert it into an SBR first, and then the need to convert it to a pistol is unnecessary. There is another more details around this, but I won't get into them right now, I am not 100% clear on them myself. Either way it's not as simple as just removing the stock.

So... If you bought the lower as a complete assembly with a stock, it was sold to you as a rifle lower and was classified as a rifle in the paperwork the manufacturer must maintain.

If you assembled the lower yourself from parts, and have added a stock to it... Technically you have already built it into a rifle and you cannot retroactively make it a pistol now... Even of you have not yet attached an upper. Before you added the stock a blank receiver is not classified as a rifle or a pistol. Technically it's a rifle as soon as the stock is mounted... So removing the stock and calling it a pistol... Well... Strictly not legal if it could be proven that you did such a thing.

Thanks for the reply.

I understand the whole rifle vs pistol stock situation. The lower is one I built and haven't put a stock on it yet because I haven't decided how to use it.

Also, I plan on acquiring or building another AR or three in the next few months.

I've never really wanted an AR pistol but have been going back and forth on my decision.

[Sharkbite]

The pistol is a good way to get the compactness of a SBR without the NFA circus.

Me, i build as pistols and then send in a form 1. Use it as a pistol w/ brace until the stamp comes back... slap on a real stock and go.

[marine6680]

Here is what I have setup for HD right now.

It has a micro RDS on it now, I just don't have a pic of that. A RDS is the best sight for HD use.

[M1Rifle30-06]

Here is what I have setup for HD right now.

It has a micro RDS on it now, I just don't have a pic of that. A RDS is the best sight for HD use.

Just curious, what parts are you using? BCG, Upper, Lower, barrel, and LPK, specifically

[marine6680]

All PSA top to bottom.

Except for:

Trigger and CH are BCM
Furniture is Magpul and a KAC Shockwave brace.

I will be installing a Radian Talon ambi safety soon.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by marine6680

O'Heir...

It has been shown that handguns penetrate walls easier than 223/5.56 when using standard HP ammo in the 9mm and 55-60gr varmint type bullets in the 223/5.56.

This AR over penetration misconception needs to die...

T. O’Heir continues to post the same bad information over and over again, no matter how many times we all try to correct him. At this point he’s probably been corrected on this specific subject at least half a dozen times, and probably more. I even PMed him about it once since he never appears to re-visit threads he’s posted in. And there are plenty of other subjects where he repeatedly posts bad information. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen him post that a silencer is pointless if you’re using supersonic bullets. And he’s been corrected each time.

I’ve given up on him ever learning anything, but we should still continue to contradict his posts in order to prevent him from spreading his ignorance around.

[Model12Win]

Originally Posted by Theohazard

T. O’Heir continues to post the same bad information over and over again, no matter how many times we all try to correct him. At this point he’s probably been corrected on this specific subject at least half a dozen times, and probably more. I even PMed him about it once since he never appears to re-visit threads he’s posted in. And there are plenty of other subjects where he repeatedly posts bad information. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen him post that a silencer is pointless if you’re using supersonic bullets. And he’s been corrected each time.

I’ve given up on him ever learning anything, but we should still continue to contradict his posts in order to prevent him from spreading his ignorance around.

+1

[Sharkbite]

You can lead a person to knowledge, but you cannot make them THINK.

[M1Rifle30-06]

All PSA top to bottom.

Except for:

Trigger and CH are BCM
Furniture is Magpul and a KAC Shockwave brace.

I will be installing a Radian Talon ambi safety soon.

Thanks for the info. Is it a PSA premium barrel or standard? And do you think it matters much whether a barrel is CHF or not?

[marine6680]

It's their standard nitride barrel.


CHF barrels. There are some benefits to them. Consistency from barrel to barrel can be better, leading to less luck of the draw for quality and accuracy. But it depends on the facility and the exact process as well. If they cut the chamber separately, there is more room for error.

But a well made cut rifle barrel, from a company that pays attention to quality, will produce a pretty consistent product as well.

Both rely upon knowing when tooling needs replaced to prevent slips in quality.

CHF does create a stronger barrel, that can hold up to harsh conditions better. Usually not a concern for a semiautomatic rifle... But it can be a factor for full auto rifles.

The FN CHF barrels offered by PSA had a different steel alloy than the one used in milspec AR barrels. It was a steel that could handle the heat of full auto better. They also had a double thick chrome lining, which made them better able to withstand high heat and large round counts.

They basically used the same barrel blanks as the SAW belt fed.

This could result in a barrel that could handle a much larger round count before being worn out... But a well made milspec chrome lined AR barrel can handle 20k rounds before being worn out. With a 15k replacement being a reasonable and prudent change period.


As far as a standard AR barrel that is CHF... Well, if the cost increase is minor, then it's performance may be worth it. But the gains are not huge. I wouldn't let the lack of CHF break the deal.

I do like them for a general consistent performance... So long as they come from the same place.

BCM offers CHF barrels, but people only suspect that they are made by FN, there is no direct evidence to this. So is it the same special steel and double chrome... Who knows. I like my BCM barrels, but my PSA FN barrel shoots a bit better, and my Ballistic Advantage barrel can shoot sub MOA, and is a standard cut rifle barrel.

I wouldn't pass up a good deal on a quality AR barrel that isn't CHF, just to hold out for a CHF barrel.

[MR-7-45]

I am a former (1970's) law enforcement officer in a "core" city with a reputation for violence.
I have a lot of experience clearing houses and buildings.My go to was and is a 12ga Remington 870 with an 18 " barrel.
If you fire one inside a house or building with such a weapon, your hearing will suffer, close one eye when you pull the trigger so you will retain some night vision in the other.
We used 00 busk in the standard issue. I always had some rifled slugs for vehicles or barricades.
For home defense, I use #6 bird shot as the shot wont do as much penetration (the wife gets upset when rounds go through the wall and penetrate furniture and such, voice of experience). If you let one go at an intruder, it will stop them ore scare the crud out of them.

[marine6680]

Bird shot is iffy...

It barely penetrates 1-2in in gel tests, and similar performance in flesh.

98% of the time, that will likely work, as it will hurt like hell and make a person think twice about what they are doing... But its that last bit where it doesn't work, where the problem arises. Better have a backup plan.

I prefer not needing one... At least not one about what to do if my given ammo choice is not up to the task.

[FrankenMauser]

I've been avoiding this thread, but figured I'd drop my two cents, since the discussion veered toward my situation.

For SD with an AR, I'm grabbing one of two things:
1. The .475 Tremor. ...Because nothing says, "Hello!" quite like a 275 gr Deep Curl at 1,900 fps. Hearing damage? What? What did you say?

2. The suppressed .300 Blk SBR loaded with expanding sub-sonic ammo (10.5" barrel + 8.3" suppressor). The only things shorter are my pistol (pistol buffer tube, 7.5" barrel) and the .475 Tremor (same lower configuration, but w/ 14.5" barrel pinned/welded w/ brake for 16.25" total). The only thing quieter is a suppressed .22 LR. The only thing that swings and points better is a lever-action.

Before the SBR stamp came through, and before the suppressor showed up, my go-to rifle options were several 20" barrels, though.
Times change as the tools evolve...


Then again, you can ask my wife what difference 4" makes. She may respond, "Doesn't really matter. I have something in my sock drawer that gets the job done just as well."
Minds out of the gutter, guys. She would be referring to a Ruger LCR.

Dude, think before you post. Any short-barreled 5.56 AR fired unsuppressed inside a residence or other building is going to cause major & permanent auditory damage. Believe it or not, that matters.

The short barrel doesn't matter.
Fire any 5.56 AR unsuppressed inside a room, and you'll suffer for it.
Even suppressed, you may still have some hearing damage.

[davidsog]

The exit hole of the .223 Remington bullet was significantly larger
than the other caliber’s, suggesting that the bullet fragmented while traveling through the wall.

The 12 Gauge Buck Shot contained twelve pellets each having a diameter of 0.32". Four of the twelve pellets completely penetrated both the stucco and plywood and came to rest in the insulation. No evidence indicated that any of the pellets contacted the back side of the drywall

https://www.interpol.int/Media/Files...al-Report-CPRC

My go to was and is a 12ga Remington 870 with an 18 " barrel.

Good choice then and Good choice now.

Additionally, putting 8 x .33 caliber holes into an assailant tends to put them down. My first tour in Afghanistan we averaged 8 rounds of 5.56mm to put the enemy down.

Now folks will chomp at the bit and hate that fact being brought up but it left a lasting impression on the guys that used the M4 in Close Quarters Combat. It is a good rifle but unless I have other guys in the stack not my personal first choice despite 26 1/2 years of carrying an AR15 platform.

A good 12 ga cannot be beat.