Modular Handgun System (former Joint Combat Pistol): Which caliber would be best? - Page 2

simonrichter · December 8, 2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Or is it a sidearm that needs to defeat some level of modern body armor that you are likly to see a Chinese or Russian "regular" equipped with? In that case I am not sure even the 5.7mm would be good enough.

a really good point, leading to the core of the matter. In fact, "regulars" will nowadays routinely wear hard body armor (class III or IV), and for such, even the so called "AP" calibers like 5,7 x 28 or 4,6 x 30mm (I didn't add the latter to the list because actually there is no handgun in that caliber) won't perform better than a .22 against a class I vest. So I'm not sure whether soft body armor penetration should be to much of a criterion. Other than that, I guess we will have to scenarios of use:
1. In a "retreat" or "buying time to get the main weapon working again" situation: Delivering rounds towards the enemy in order to force him to take cover (no matter whether these bullets actually "stop" or "penetrate"...)
2. For SOCOM purposes where especially the a good performance w/ subsonic rounds seems desirable...

TxFlyFish · December 9, 2011, 01:18 AM

Why are so many countries using the 5.7?

simonrichter · December 9, 2011, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Why are so many countries using the 5.7

I guess that has to with the P90 and its quite unique design especially at the time it was first presented. Still, especially the Five-Seven pistol is not nearly as common in the NATO arsenals as 9mm pistols are. Other than in Belgium, where both the P90 and the Five-Seven are widely used, in most other countries the caliber remains reserved rather to special purposes or certain niches and is not the main standard issue sidearm for the common soldier.

Borch · December 10, 2011, 08:41 PM

The 5.7 really ins't that popular when you look at just how few countries are deploying it in large quantities. A couple of Euro countries have large scale deployment otherwise it seems to be a special purpose weapon for the most part.

Armor penetration is not a valid consideration for any handgun round. Modern armor, even in soft versions is very capable of stopping any of the listed calibers. Even the miracle 5.7 can't get through a level 4 soft vest and still be capable of doing a lethal amount of damage, let alone any grade of hard armor.

The 9 is simply the best choice caliber wise. As previously stated there's droves ammo throughout the world and it provides the best weight to capacity ratio. I do believe our service weapon is in need of upgrading as is our choice of service round (115 gr FMJ's suck). But neither of these things will happen anytime soon so why not focus on maximizing what is available rather than dreaming about what's not?

simonrichter · December 14, 2011, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Armor penetration is not a valid consideration for any handgun round. Modern armor, even in soft versions is very capable of stopping any of the listed calibers. Even the miracle 5.7 can't get through a level 4 soft vest and still be capable of doing a lethal amount of damage, let alone any grade of hard armor.

I totally agree with this, but on the other hand wonder why still new PDW calibers are developed and actually issued (e.g. the Chines switching from 9mm to their proprietary 5,8 x 21mm)...

simonrichter · December 29, 2011, 03:28 PM

More and more I come to the conclusion that, despite the merits of standardization, the DOD would be well advised to split the bid into one for a standard sidearm, one for a "offensive" SOCOM handgun and maybe one for a survival handgun for pilots...

simonrichter · October 29, 2012, 03:29 PM

Lo and behold: The Marines stick with the good old Colt. A little retro in my opinion, but anyway:

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/16...1a1-rail-guns/

temmi · October 30, 2012, 02:50 PM

I believe a 45 would be best... with a 40 next.

But

NATO uses a 9 and supply is a good thing

Snake

Bart Noir · November 2, 2012, 01:32 PM

Simon, most Marines will never see one of those 1911 handguns.

It is being purchased in relatively small numbers to replace worn-out 1911s that the MARSOC units have never stopped using. Regular Marines, will still use the M9 (or M9A1) from Beretta.

Bart Noir
Who hesitates to call any Marine "regular", for obvious reasons!

simonrichter · November 5, 2012, 06:35 PM

The number may not be too large, still 4.000 new guns is more than the few they need for say the Navy's SEALs or thelike. And it's worth noticing that they stick with the old platform in new tarnish (literally) rather than switching to a post-2000 system and also a more modern caliber...

PH/CIB · November 5, 2012, 11:32 PM

Never carried a sidearm in the Military...If given a choice for the size and weight,,,I would probably prefer an extra fully loaded rifle magazine or an additional hand grenade and skip the pistol.

LSP972 · November 7, 2012, 05:09 PM

Read it again, Simon. The contract is for 1200+ pistols, renewable twice. IOW, they buy 1200, wear those out, buy 1200 more, rinse and repeat.

Bart is right.

.

simonrichter · December 8, 2012, 06:11 PM

http://www.ammoland.com/2012/09/17/b...#axzz2EVLolQ2K

lo and behold - seems "US military sidearms" and "modernization" don't go together well. Stick with what is outdated but proven until it turns to rust.

3kgt2nv · December 8, 2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

I totally agree with this, but on the other hand wonder why still new PDW calibers are developed and actually issued (e.g. the Chines switching from 9mm to their proprietary 5,8 x 21mm)...

same reason for the 5.56 damaged inflicted is usually less than lethal requiring more personnel to treat the wounded soldier. we are one of the few countries that still treat our wounded that get involved in foreign wars.

armsmaster270 · December 8, 2012, 07:47 PM

A lot of elite military units are back to using the .45 auto

Sgt.207 · December 10, 2012, 07:45 AM

45GAP

BGutzman · December 12, 2012, 03:52 PM

The military's on the edge of being scrapped... I cant see anything other than a few major weapons systems being funded... UAV's are the wave of the future but we have yet to figure out that UAVs cant hold ground, check ids or interact in a positive way with locals...

NATO has lost a lot of its umph and the only serious threat IMHO is China.. NATO will linger as it has been but IMHO its all but washed up... No we will keep our m9s and Ar's for the foreseeable future despite some fairly unhappy troops here and there.... Its like a forever repeating cycle...

Bart Noir · December 13, 2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

The military's on the edge of being scrapped...

Thanks for the view from Mars

Hey, it is your location choice......

There are always some unhappy troops. But weapons choices are not made by voting corporals. So, yes, the M9 pistol and the M16 rifle plus M4 carbine will stay in US inventory for a long time.

But innovation is not dead. Look at the US Marine Corps. They have put into service, into combat, a revolving 40mm grenade launcher and a new automatic rifle (the M27 Individual Automatic Rifle) to move the M249 squad automatic weapon (SAW) out of the rifle squads.

And more important, the IAR has only a 2-digit model number! It is insanity to have 3- and 4-digit models of anything! I mean, isn't the HUMVEE the M1114 or something?

Bart Noir
Who steps down from the labeling soapbox.

BlueTrain · December 13, 2012, 03:16 PM

Hard informations is difficult to come by without a lot of digging and even then, it's probably dated. Be that as it may be, however, an rifle company in a light (non-mechanized) infantry battalion only has about 11 pistols. They could be using 1903 FN pistols in 9mm Browning Long and the impact on the world would go unnoticed.

BGutzman · December 13, 2012, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the view from Mars

Hey, it is your location choice......

Mark my words the military will take deep reductions and then continued to be hobbled by ever more PC rules... The winds of change weren't terribly military friendly when I retired from the Army and I cant believe its any better now...

Its not that the military itself will end but our military supremacy will.. In any case no, I see few new approved guns on the horizon...

simonrichter · January 16, 2013, 04:37 AM

Maybe a little off-topic, but not really: The British have awarded a huge contract to finally replace their old Brownings with Glocks:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20978842

btw: them being G17s, they also stick with 9mm.

simonrichter · September 21, 2013, 02:12 PM

Update: Seems the process has been resumed lately, with testing beginning in early 2014: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_Handgun_System#Development

See also:

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/s...ndgun-systems/

Jim243 · September 21, 2013, 03:02 PM

simonrichter, this is an old thread but I see you keep updating it.

While I totally agree that the current caliber has questionable usefulness, I don't see anyone changing any time soon. Even if they wanted to change, by the time the testing was done, production wouldn't start until 2015 and in the quantity in the RFI the actual pistol would not reach the field till 2016 (an election year) good luck on them spending the money then, so say you wouldn't see any change till 2018 in the field.

I could see a change maybe in 2020 with a pistol made to use a number of different calibers with only a barrel and mag change. Something along the lines of a 40 caliber that can accept a barrel for 9 mm, 357 Sig and of course the 40 S&W. That way existing supplies and stockpiles of ammo could be used up without having to change the pistol each time (only the barrel), I am sure that since the current mags for 40 S&W can also be used for 357 Sig (better than a 9 mm) someone will develop a mag that can be used for all three calibers so only a barrel change would be needed.

Personally I prefer the 45 Auto (ACP), but what do I know, and our friends in Europe would never go along with that.
Jim

PS: My personal choice would be a CZ 75 in 40 S&W with a conversion barrel for 357 Sig. Now that would rock. I already have one in 9 mm. And this one is already NATO approved for purchase.

simonrichter · September 21, 2013, 05:04 PM

the argument that the NATO allies all use all use 9mm as a handgun and PDW caliber is only partially substantive since e.g. the Germans use the 4,6 besides the 5,56 and the 9mm, the Belgians the 5,7 etc. So it doesn't seem THAT unrealistic that the outcome of the MHS trials is going to be a new caliber. Others broke with standardization, so why not the US?

Moreover, since there are newer batches of M9 dating back to just the mid-2000s, there would be enough M9s left to use up any stockpiled 9mm ammo in any case.

armsmaster270 · September 21, 2013, 06:19 PM

U.S.Coast Guard is issuing .40 Sigs. Hollow points in CONUS and Ball in combat. As CG is LE in CONUS and military in combat areas.

View Poll Results: future sidearm for the US forces: Which caliber fits best?
5,7 x 28mm	4	5.48%
9 x 19mm	31	42.47%
.40 S&W	13	17.81%
.45 ACP	25	34.25%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

November 2, 2012, 01:32 PM	#34
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	Simon, most Marines will never see one of those 1911 handguns. It is being purchased in relatively small numbers to replace worn-out 1911s that the MARSOC units have never stopped using. Regular Marines, will still use the M9 (or M9A1) from Beretta. Bart Noir Who hesitates to call any Marine "regular", for obvious reasons! __________________ Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle!

November 5, 2012, 11:32 PM	#36
PH/CIB Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 281	Never carried a sidearm in the Military...If given a choice for the size and weight,,,I would probably prefer an extra fully loaded rifle magazine or an additional hand grenade and skip the pistol. __________________ Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net

December 8, 2012, 06:11 PM	#38
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	http://www.ammoland.com/2012/09/17/b...#axzz2EVLolQ2K lo and behold - seems "US military sidearms" and "modernization" don't go together well. Stick with what is outdated but proven until it turns to rust. __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

December 8, 2012, 07:47 PM	#40
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	A lot of elite military units are back to using the .45 auto __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

December 9, 2011, 01:18 AM	#27
TxFlyFish Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Posts: 1,246	Why are so many countries using the 5.7?

December 10, 2011, 08:41 PM	#29
Borch Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2008 Location: Minnesota Posts: 202	The 5.7 really ins't that popular when you look at just how few countries are deploying it in large quantities. A couple of Euro countries have large scale deployment otherwise it seems to be a special purpose weapon for the most part. Armor penetration is not a valid consideration for any handgun round. Modern armor, even in soft versions is very capable of stopping any of the listed calibers. Even the miracle 5.7 can't get through a level 4 soft vest and still be capable of doing a lethal amount of damage, let alone any grade of hard armor. The 9 is simply the best choice caliber wise. As previously stated there's droves ammo throughout the world and it provides the best weight to capacity ratio. I do believe our service weapon is in need of upgrading as is our choice of service round (115 gr FMJ's suck). But neither of these things will happen anytime soon so why not focus on maximizing what is available rather than dreaming about what's not?

December 29, 2011, 03:28 PM	#31
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	More and more I come to the conclusion that, despite the merits of standardization, the DOD would be well advised to split the bid into one for a standard sidearm, one for a "offensive" SOCOM handgun and maybe one for a survival handgun for pilots...

October 29, 2012, 03:29 PM	#32
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	Lo and behold: The Marines stick with the good old Colt. A little retro in my opinion, but anyway: http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/16...1a1-rail-guns/

October 30, 2012, 02:50 PM	#33
temmi Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 531	I believe a 45 would be best... with a 40 next. But NATO uses a 9 and supply is a good thing Snake

November 5, 2012, 06:35 PM	#35
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	The number may not be too large, still 4.000 new guns is more than the few they need for say the Navy's SEALs or thelike. And it's worth noticing that they stick with the old platform in new tarnish (literally) rather than switching to a post-2000 system and also a more modern caliber...

November 7, 2012, 05:09 PM	#37
LSP972 Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Posts: 189	Read it again, Simon. The contract is for 1200+ pistols, renewable twice. IOW, they buy 1200, wear those out, buy 1200 more, rinse and repeat. Bart is right. .

December 10, 2012, 07:45 AM	#41
Sgt.207 Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: NY Posts: 25	45GAP

December 12, 2012, 03:52 PM	#42
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	The military's on the edge of being scrapped... I cant see anything other than a few major weapons systems being funded... UAV's are the wave of the future but we have yet to figure out that UAVs cant hold ground, check ids or interact in a positive way with locals... NATO has lost a lot of its umph and the only serious threat IMHO is China.. NATO will linger as it has been but IMHO its all but washed up... No we will keep our m9s and Ar's for the foreseeable future despite some fairly unhappy troops here and there.... Its like a forever repeating cycle... __________________ Molon Labe

December 13, 2012, 03:16 PM	#44
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Hard informations is difficult to come by without a lot of digging and even then, it's probably dated. Be that as it may be, however, an rifle company in a light (non-mechanized) infantry battalion only has about 11 pistols. They could be using 1903 FN pistols in 9mm Browning Long and the impact on the world would go unnoticed. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

January 16, 2013, 04:37 AM	#46
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	Maybe a little off-topic, but not really: The British have awarded a huge contract to finally replace their old Brownings with Glocks: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20978842 btw: them being G17s, they also stick with 9mm. __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

September 21, 2013, 02:12 PM	#47
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	Update: Seems the process has been resumed lately, with testing beginning in early 2014: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_Handgun_System#Development See also: http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/s...ndgun-systems/ __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

September 21, 2013, 03:02 PM	#48
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	simonrichter, this is an old thread but I see you keep updating it. While I totally agree that the current caliber has questionable usefulness, I don't see anyone changing any time soon. Even if they wanted to change, by the time the testing was done, production wouldn't start until 2015 and in the quantity in the RFI the actual pistol would not reach the field till 2016 (an election year) good luck on them spending the money then, so say you wouldn't see any change till 2018 in the field. I could see a change maybe in 2020 with a pistol made to use a number of different calibers with only a barrel and mag change. Something along the lines of a 40 caliber that can accept a barrel for 9 mm, 357 Sig and of course the 40 S&W. That way existing supplies and stockpiles of ammo could be used up without having to change the pistol each time (only the barrel), I am sure that since the current mags for 40 S&W can also be used for 357 Sig (better than a 9 mm) someone will develop a mag that can be used for all three calibers so only a barrel change would be needed. Personally I prefer the 45 Auto (ACP), but what do I know, and our friends in Europe would never go along with that. Jim PS: My personal choice would be a CZ 75 in 40 S&W with a conversion barrel for 357 Sig. Now that would rock. I already have one in 9 mm. And this one is already NATO approved for purchase. __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum Last edited by Jim243; September 21, 2013 at 03:15 PM.

September 21, 2013, 05:04 PM	#49
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	the argument that the NATO allies all use all use 9mm as a handgun and PDW caliber is only partially substantive since e.g. the Germans use the 4,6 besides the 5,56 and the 9mm, the Belgians the 5,7 etc. So it doesn't seem THAT unrealistic that the outcome of the MHS trials is going to be a new caliber. Others broke with standardization, so why not the US? Moreover, since there are newer batches of M9 dating back to just the mid-2000s, there would be enough M9s left to use up any stockpiled 9mm ammo in any case. __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

September 21, 2013, 06:19 PM	#50
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	U.S.Coast Guard is issuing .40 Sigs. Hollow points in CONUS and Ball in combat. As CG is LE in CONUS and military in combat areas. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.