Sig's "voluntary upgrade program" sig p320 drop fire

[balance]

Need for what exactly? To know that SIG took the corporate excuse way out of the situation? Heck I knew that long before you posted about it.

In other words, they lied. They lied to us. I don't like being lied to by corporations who don't care whether or not I carry a pistol on my waist that is inherently unsafe, to the point that it can get me or anyone else in range killed, only because it falls two and a half feet.

I will say that I'm curious if you still are uncertain whether or not they did their due diligence in regards to testing the design? You mentioned this in this thread, before I posted.

[TunnelRat]

I already answered that:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...71&postcount=9

[balance]

From that post:

However, I am not convinced I can say SIG didn't do their due diligence as I haven't seen evidence that other manufacturers do include these angled drops in their standard tests.

They stated that the pistol was drop safe, when it wasn't.

They didn't include a drop safety on the trigger which would have prevented this issue. Every other comparable design from every other manufacturer has a drop safety on the trigger, even though it is not required to pass the "industry standard".

I'll go back to my previous question. Without being confrontational, and just out of curiosity, what more do you need, to come to the conclusion that they didn't do their due diligence?

[TunnelRat]

It was drop safe with regards to the standard tests. It passe those without the tabbed trigger. Is that a technicality? I could see that, but I haven't seen evidence that when that pistol came out they knew it would fire when dropped at an angle.

They didn't include a tabbed safety, to my knowledge, because the belief was that the P320's forward moving trigger bar as opposed to the typical rearward moving trigger would mitigate the momentum imparted to the trigger on a fall and the forces would cancel each other to the point where the pistol wouldn't fire. Obviously that didn't hold to be true.

Without being confrontational

In my opinion you are being confrontational at this point. I'm entitled to an opinion, as are you. I'm not SIG's lawyer and it's not my responsibility to defend them to you personally. I've been pretty clear as to my views on this thread. Let it go.

[balance]

They didn't include a tabbed safety, to my knowledge, because the belief was that the P320's forward moving trigger bar as opposed to the typical rearward moving trigger would mitigate the momentum imparted to the trigger on a fall and the forces would cancel each other to the point where the pistol wouldn't fire. Obviously that didn't hold to be true.

Well then we have a big difference of opinion on this one. If they decided to change the design of the drop safety, then they should have tested it thoroughly. I'm not a firearm designer, and I knew that the only reason the tabbed triggers were put on pistols were to prevent discharges from a muzzle up drop. The Sig P320 discharges from a muzzle up drop after they chose to not put the tabbed trigger in there. If they chose to change the design, I would have expected them to test it in the angles that we are talking about here.

In my opinion you are being confrontational at this point. I'm entitled to an opinion, as are you. I'm not SIG's lawyer and it's not my responsibility to defend them to you personally. I've been pretty clear as to my views on this thread. Let it go.

Very well. I guess I'll have to with you at this point.

I am displeased with the amount of effort people (and not necessarily you TunnelRat) seem to put forth in regards to what I would call, defending Sig. Sig should have known better is my main argument, and then how they handled it after the fact is what took my issue with them over the edge. How anyone could defend Sig or their practices at this point is beyond me. They seemingly were, and still are, more than willing to allow half a million pistols that have been proven to fire from a drop of as little as two and a half feet, to stay "on the street" in the hands of people who would be less likely to turn them in if they heard that it was a "voluntary upgrade" rather than a full blown recall.

I've seen people drop pistols right in front of me.

[TunnelRat]

They tested it at the angles that are part of the industry standard. No more, no less. The angles at which the system fails are not part of the industry standard test. They didn't change the original design. The no tab trigger was their original design. The tabbed trigger was supposed to be an additional option that never materialized. The trigger itself, meaning the physical part that your finger touches, has also changed since the pistol started and I wonder if that change in mass over time has made this an issue that wasn't at first. That's complete conjecture on my part.

You're obviously upset about this. I'm not saying it's wrong to be upset. But again, it's not my job to defend SIG. I express a viewpoint and you can agree or disagree as you see fit. At some point a difference in opinion is just that, a difference, and it may not be rectified. That you're displeased with the community is unfortunate, but again differences happen and I am not the person answerable for all your disagreements.

I agree that it's a safety issue, I never said otherwise and in multiple threads here and elsewhere have called them on it. If you feel very strongly you could consider a lawsuit. At the very least don't buy any of their products going forward.

[balance]

You're obviously upset about this.

Not exactly upset, but displeased if nothing else, and by "this", I mean the people who still show Sig support or are willing to brush this under the rug even after it is obvious what they did here.

Most people who own firearms aren't enthusiasts who register to gun forums. I hope the next time someone drops a pistol in front of me, at a class or at a range, that it isn't a P320 that someone chose to not "voluntarily upgrade".

[TunnelRat]

I'm not "brushing anything under a rug".

Again, consider a lawsuit then. This is not me being facetious. Frankly going around the internet and talking about it really won't change anything and the people you're likely discussing it with are those that are already aware. It's certainly your right, I'm just saying the only thing that will have any effect is something that affects their bottom line.

[balance]

I'm not "brushing anything under a rug".

I didn't say you were.

Do you disagree that others seem to want to make this out to be not a big deal?

Again, consider a lawsuit then.

What exactly would I sue them for? I didn't get shot by one of their pistols, and hopefully never will.

Frankly going around the internet and talking about it really won't change anything and the people you're likely discussing it with are those that are already aware.

This is a discussion forum. The same statement could be said about any post in any thread here.

It is you who is being confrontational now.

[TunnelRat]

Do you disagree that others seem to want to make this out to be not a big deal?

To a point I do. I think there are fanboys that are in complete denial, but I don't think it's the majority. The gun "media" has covered this story pretty well, as they should, and I feel hasn't given SIG too much slack. Like anything there will always be those that refuse to believe their brand of choice did something wrong.

What exactly would I sue them for? I didn't get shot by one of their pistols, and hopefully never will.

Negligence seems to be the claim that could be made from your statements.

Like you I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just stating the obvious, which I imagine is how you feel as well.

[JERRYS.]

did Sig not do drop testing before pushing this model out the door?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Again I am not defending SIG, but no I don't personally consider an non-settled lawsuit a "report". In that case there are reports of practically everything. Maybe the word "report" should have been chosen differently.

You don't considered a police department contacting SIG and telling them a P320 discharged IN THE HOLSTER after being dropped a "report of a drop-related incident?" What, then, would you consider a "report" sufficient for your strange definition of the word?

[TunnelRat]

There have been a number of officer-involved negligent firearm-related incidents in my area. So just because that is claimed I do not immediately believe it. If you want to consider it a report sure, but again we get into what is meant by a report. If a report is someone calling SIG and claiming a defective product resulted in injury then I imagine there are reports for everything. Maybe SIG means a court decided case against them. I'm sure some lawyer at SIG could explain. But if you want to say SIG misrepresented the situation then I can see that.

[balance]

did Sig not do drop testing before pushing this model out the door?

Apparently not as much as others.

If the others only followed the "industry standard", then none of them would have a drop safety on the trigger. The fact that they do seems to indicate that they knew the pistols would fire if dropped in a muzzle up position. I have to believe they found this out due to testing, common knowledge, or both. Both of which seem to be lacking at Sig.

[TunnelRat]

Apparently not as much as others.

I have to believe they found this out due to testing, common knowledge, or both

But you don't know that to be true. I have no idea if Glock added the tab because of testing or not. I do know that SIG's design is not the same as Glock's. Maybe Glock did do this because of additional drop testing, or maybe they just did it to be safer. Either way it's a good thing they did, it's just not something that I think we can trace directly to more drop testing.

I'd also point out that the supposed fix to this problem that will come when this recall starts (taking quite some time now), which has been tested and doesn't have the same problem, does not include a trigger tab at all.

[balance]

But you don't know that to be true.

I don't, but common sense and intuition play a part. Those drop safeties on the trigger cost the manufactures more money. Why else would they add them other than it being found that the pistol could fire from a muzzle up drop? Why else would practically all other comparable designs use them?

I'd also point out that the supposed fix to this problem that will come when this recall starts (taking quite some time now), which has been tested and doesn't have the same problem, does not include a trigger tab at all.

Whether the tab on the trigger is necessary or not makes no difference as far as I'm concerned. My point is if a designer chooses to leave off a safety feature that practically all other manufacturers have chosen to add to the design, they better test the heck out of that pistol before sending it out the door. Sig obviously didn't.

[TunnelRat]

but common sense and intuition

I'm not doubting your common sense and intuition. But neither of those are the same as facts. That was my point.

Whether the tab on the trigger is necessary or not makes no difference as far as I'm concerned.

Given that you've brought up the trigger tab and its existence on other designs a few times now I am simply pointing out that the tab itself is not even the solution, supposedly. And again while SIG does not have the tab that other designs do it also differs from them internally so while I get your point about removing a safety feature, it's not a direct 1:1 comparison in terms of designs here.

[balance]

I'm not doubting your common sense and intuition. But neither of those are the same as facts. That was my point.

True.

Given that you've brought up the trigger tab and its existence on other designs a few times now I am simply pointing out that the tab itself is not even the solution, supposedly.

It seems to be the industry standard though. I'm assuming that it is the easiest way possible to design a pistol that is truly drop safe, or at least to the degree that most if not all others are, being that all others are using it.

I have no doubt that a tab on the trigger would have prevented this issue on the Sig P320.

[TunnelRat]

I have no doubt that a tab on the trigger would have prevented this issue on the Sig P320.

Very likely. In all honesty I have zero issue with a tab on a trigger. Literally all the other striker fired pistols I have, absent the P99 (but that also has a DA trigger), have it and it doesn't bother me in terms of why it's there or how it feels. I never got how it was a selling point to not have one.

[balance]

Literally all the other striker fired pistols I have, absent the P99 (but that also has a DA trigger), have it and it doesn't bother me in terms of why it's there or how it feels.

Even the P99 has a drop safety on the trigger. Rather than having a tab on the trigger, the entire trigger pivots while being pulled to the rear. The design is different, but it accomplishes the same thing. It was more than likely put there to prevent a discharge if the pistol was already cocked in SA mode, and then dropped.

I never got how it was a selling point to not have one.

Me neither.

From this point on, I think it will be a negative if a striker fired pistol doesn't have one, as far as I'm concerned. I understand how the tab on the trigger works, and I understand why everyone else uses it. If another manufacturer chose to make a pistol without one, I wouldn't feel comfortable loading it until I understood what safety features they put in place to replace it.

[Fishbed77]

Even the P99 has a drop safety on the trigger. Rather than having a tab on the trigger, the entire trigger pivots while being pulled to the rear. The design is different, but it accomplishes the same thing. It was more than likely put there to prevent a discharge if the pistol was already cocked in SA mode, and then dropped.

Frankly, this is the best design I've seen yet for this type of device. It eliminates pretty much every complaint about the trigger tab while providing the exact same functionality. I'm surprised we haven't seen it on more pistols (including Walther's own P99Q/P99RAD/PPQ).

[TunnelRat]

That's what I don't get. Why isn't it on the PPQ?

[vba]

Really hate the term "Voluntary Upgrade Program". Sig should man-up and do a recall because this is a safety issue. Completely see where the OP is coming from.

[balance]

That's what I don't get. Why isn't it on the PPQ?

The P99 has two different trigger positions with the DA and SA modes of the trigger. There is one drop safety notch on the P99 trigger for the DA trigger position, and another drop safety notch for the SA trigger position. Walther chose to have a drop safety notch for each trigger position.

The PPQ, and almost all other striker fired pistols only have one trigger position that the manufacturers need to worry about. The P99 DAO also had a Glock-style drop safety.

Really hate the term "Voluntary Upgrade Program". Sig should man-up and do a recall because this is a safety issue.

I agree.

[IMightBeWrong]

Drama aside, I am awaiting word from SIG to send mine in and I don't plan to sell it at all. Seems every other gun that comes out has teething problems and people gang up on them when it happens. Gun owners can be quite fickle. My understanding is that the new trigger also breaks cleaner and feels better so I'm just looking forward to that. In a couple of years people will forget all about the issue. I don't hear anyone still worried that their Beretta slide is going to fracture and hit them in the face