Auto Drive PLANS For Dillon 650 & 1050?

[JeepHammer]

Looking for a set of PLANS for an auto drive for either a XL650 or Super 1050 Dillon.
For $1,000 I think I can do a little metal cutting/welding and build my own,
Looking for a place to start so I don't have to start directly from scratch.

[hartcreek]

Why auto drive? why not rig up an air cylinder with a foot pedal that way when something goes wrong you can just stop tapping your foot.

[jmorris]

An air cylinder would be a bad idea, air is "springy". So it would be erratic in function. Hydraulic would (and does work) because the fluid is somewhat incompressible.

That said, I have automated a few myself, a large part of the cost will be with the motor. The rest is just linkage and such, unless your looking at the rotary 1050 style that would require considerable machining and the bearings used are quite expensive as well.


I don't know of anyone that offers "plans" for any of them though.

This is the first one I built though. No need for human intervention as it runs itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU

It is not any faster, actually slower, than a manual machine configured the same way. Like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-RxMulCqbQ

However, you can be doing other things while it is loading.

I personally don't think there is a "consumer" machine that is reliable enough to automate except the 1050.

[stubbicatt]

Cool JMorris. Really cool.

[jmorris]

Jeep, I will add that if you do go on to build your own get a 3ph 240v motor off eBay and a VFD from automation direct (GS1 or GS2). The motor will be less than a single phase 110v gear motor and you will have infinite speed adjustment and still be able to run off 110v.

[JeepHammer]

I like the idea of hydraulics, direct drive the ram with very little linkage.
The issue there would be having a hydraulic pump on my hardwood floors and the heat all hydraulic systems generate.
A system malfunction could easily break the aluminum frame on a XL650.

The guys thinking that air rams are 'Spongy' haven't worked with air rams before. They WILL take a finger off or sheer metal in a heart beat when the supply pressure/line size/valving size.
I'm also not interested in running a compressor to power my press.

Probably going to go with electric, more linkage, but pretty easy to build in overpressure switches to shut things down in the event of a malfunction.
Really don't want my press frame broken, small parts are one thing, the frame isn't something I have spares laying around for...

The VFR motor is a very good idea, need to look into wiring for that since I've not wired an AC VFR before.

[jmorris]

I have messed with my fair share of pneumatics and it is a simple fact that a ram is a chamber and air can compress and build pressure and once the load is overcome speed can greatly increase.

So let's say you pneumaticly force a 650 ram up then it is switched to the "down" cycle and the case has resistance on the expander at #2. So pressure builds then the release jerks the machine and spins the shell plate, powder flys, etc.

Air works fine for somethings, I have even used it for sizers before, like this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eANEMBS_V_0

But that is just forcing things one way, no need to have bidirectional control.

In any case a motor and mechanical linkage will be cheaper than anything else, if you don't already have "stuff". Buy a compressor, air cylinder, solenoids, dryers, regulators, etc vs a motor and metal.

Not to mention with pneumatics you will have to figure out a way to get consistent stroke with different forces (especially with a 650) as you are not going to a mechanical limit at both ends of the stroke.

Sounds like a good way to get different OAL's and primer seating depth along with added costs.

This is one of the VFD's that I have used for 240v 3ph motors ran from 110v single phase for variable speed.
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...V-z-Hz_Control)
They have other VFD's that have more features also.

[JeepHammer]

I agree, this is an application for hydraulics or electric motor/linkage.
I work with air systems on a daily basis, I don't see this as an air application.

Morris, your link failed.
Please tell me more about 240 volt speed control.
You are using this as direct drive, just slowing it down,
Or are you talking gear reduction (torque multiplication) box between motor and drive linkage.
I have a couple of gear reduction boxes laying around, and they pop up dirt cheap on eBay,
So do all sorts of motors, control components...

I built a case processing press, checks cases for damage to the neck, under/over size cases (204 Ruger, 222 mag, ect) then punches the primers, spits the cases out for proper cleaning without the primer in place.
It ejects wrong caliber or damaged necks without stoppages.
Does two cases every stroke, so about 60 cases a minute.
All no force, down stroke action, so no shell plates involved like you need for resizing, case sets in a loose 'Shoe', spring pressure kicks the case off the primer punch die, keeps the case moving in the shoe to the next station.
I used a powder die, cut a collet to push against the shoulder, and put a spring behind it, turned a cap for the die.

Now I want to case size/trim once the case is cleaned, polished, lubed...
Case feeding, die stations, and trim is figured out, but I don't know the best way to control speed of the press, and we all know that different brass sizes at different rates, and the speed of the machine has to allow for how fast the other functions on the press will happen, along with providing the force to size the case, extract the case from the sizing die, then transfer to the next station...

I'm SERIOUSLY interested in the variable speed arrangement!
Right now every gear reduction box I have is too fast...
Getting a motor that is adjustable for a 'C' frame would solve my issues.

[jmorris]

Not sure why the link doesn't work today. Google "GS1 VFD" and click on any of the automation direct links.

I think I used GS2 VFD's on the large tumblers I built but this is a video showing their speed control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZOYjmAnO0

[mdemetz]

Maybe you can get ideas from Ponsness-Warren's systems.

[jmorris]

This is a rotary style I put together a few years ago processing brass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ieGYpdr9I

[Bill DeShivs]

Here is a site that has VFD/motor combinations at very good prices. I recommend getting a TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) motor. You need a 3 phase 220V motor and the proper VFD to run it on 120V with variable speed.
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/9987-KBAC-24D/

[JeepHammer]

Some pretty bad reviews of PW drives after people get some experence with them, and over $1,000 with accessories.

Talked to tech at Automation Direct and looked at some VFD units/motors,
I think this is the last piece of the puzzle.
Through a gear reduction box, I'll increase torque while reducing speed, and can still keep the motor turning fast enough it doesn't heat up.
Lonjevity of the motor is a consideration, so keeping it turning fast enough to self cool is a consideration, and gear reduction boxes are cheap, and will give me back the power lost to single phase current.

Talked to a systems engineer that clued me into keeping the motor turning at closer to its top speed for cooling, and I agree.
Already have two or three gear reduction boxes laying around, so its no big deal...
Also lets me turn the motor 90* to the press, getting it from under foot or having it stick out behind the press, so its going to make things easier to operate/gives me more of my bench top back.

Got a chance to work with a Dillon 1050, don't think its enough press for large or hard .30 cal rifle brass, might have just been wear on the press.
Older .308 & .30-06 brass weren't very uniform,
I think the brass was just whipping the press, which is the issue I have with the XL650, larger/older/thicker brass just whips the press instead of the press whipping the brass...

So back to building a press that whips the brass every time...
This is getting expensive, but no where as expensive as the $29,000 for a Camdex machine, or the 7 months to two years leade time to get one!
(There is also the issue of $2,000 caliber changes with Camdex)

Its looking like the entire press is going to come in around $3,000,
Good motor, speed control about $500,
Added electronics about $300,
About $1,500 for the precision ground metal stock,
About $200 for tooling.

This thing *Should* do things Camdex doesn't,
Like CUT (Trim) the military crimp away, instead of swage and leave that primer snag point in the primer pocket mouth,
Its going to cut/uniform primer pocket size/depth,
Its going to trim to length from the DATUM point on the case shoulder, and do an inside & outside case taper cut.

I'm also using MUCH less expensive common size dies, instead of a $2,000 set of propritary dies.
Nothing quite like NON-Propritary wear/tools when you can!

If a press hasn't got enough to spit out SAAMI specification cases (or what ever you set the dies to produce),
What's the point?
Its much more simple to just buy a press that won't do the job than to build one that won't do the job,
So I guess I have to build one that WILL do the job....

Actually been wanting a Camdex for years, been rolling the ideas around in my head about building one for about 5 years after finding out Camdex swages instead of cutting primer pockets, and they don't offer a trimming option,
Finally getting off my butt and moving forward.
Should have done it 8 years ago, about the first annual "Obama's comming for your guns!" shortages,
Could have made real money selling ready to load brass.

That's my life, a day late & a dollar short!

[JeepHammer]

Mr. Morris, you have built some pretty slick stuff!!!
Thanks again for the VFD idea, I really think that is the way to go and I don't have to mess with getting a 3 phase service installed.
That alone is going to save a ton of money!
I think 3 phase was a deal breaker since I'm mostly off grid where I live.

I figured out how to turn an off the shelf powder die into a case checker,
Weeds out .222 & .204 cases, along with ejecting crushed case necks & Berdan primed cases without stopping the machine.
Had to cut a datum insert and center rod, top for the die that accommodates micro switches, but it works quite well.
Nothing like a .204 Ruger case or Berdan prime case to ball things up entirely!

Since I'm mostly working range brass, having a probe check the case for forign objects finds those occasional mud balls, rocks, .22 LR cases that show up in the cases from time to time...
Steel pins from cleaning also show up in the flash holes or in the cases from time to time...

Uniform cutting the primer pocket (not cutting the crimp) was a challenge,
So when the case is crunched in the sizing die is the perfect time to uniform the primer pocket,
The case is dead center in the sizing die,
AND, the sizer has a firm grip on the case so it doesn't spin when the end mill hits the primer pocket.
All I have to do is knock the primer out at a different station instead of during sizing so there isn't a pin or primer in the pocket, and the uniform cutter can work.

This *Should* be the order,
1. Case feed
2. Case check/eject
3. Deprime
4. Inside case neck brush/lube from above,
Primer pocket check/military crimp removal from below, eject anything with a primer still in place (as in broken decapping pin in previous station)
5. Resize case from above, primer pocket uniform cut from below
6. Case neck center/size, case gauge/eject sub standard/off center cases
7. Neck trim to length from datum point on shoulder, champfer inside & outside case mouth/eject finished case.

There will be an 8th station available to cut neck thickness (turn case neck) but that's rarely nessary for anything but bench rifle ammo or really old surplus ammo military cases.

I also decided to build in a pilot drill into the primer pocket uniformer, to uniform flash holes, but that won't be used often,
And I'm wondering why no one has used the crimp remover tools as the primer checker before?
They work great to check for primer with just a micro switch to check for depth.
Micro switch just kicks the case out if there is still something in the primer pocket,
And if you are just knocking out primers so you can clean the case completely,
You simply leave the eject function turned on,
You sort the cases, deprime the cases, then off for annealing/complete cleaning after being checked for primer.

Self limiting cutting all the way around,
Military crimp cutter and primer pocket uniformer index off the bottom of the case so they don't cut too deep,
Trimmer indexes off the shoulder/datum point to limit cut for neck length.
Case over all length will depend on the dies pushing the shoulder back, getting the datum point in the correct position,
Once that's done, indexing off the datum point/shoulder for correct case neck length is a snap. Nice big shoulder to index off of for the neck trim.

The other thing is, with 8 stations, converting cases won't be much of an issue,
223 to 300 blackout, 308 to 22-250, 30-06 to 25-06, ect.
I'm sure you have seen the prices of obsolete or exotic cases lately...

[JeepHammer]

First run with constant speed motor: FAILURE in every way possible!
Case shuttle from station to station couldn't keep up,
Mayhem Ensued!

I've never seen a case partly crushed take off across the garage before!
The comment from the guy helping with the project,
"TAKE COVER! WE'RE TAKING FIRE!"

The foresight to install a big red 'STOP' button has proven itself useful.

Now we have reluctantly decided to wait until the VFD gets here...

[str8tshot]

Have you thought about using a servo positioned with controller? I would recommend a smart controller so you don't need to add PLC, but an AB slick is cheap anyway. Emerson drives may have what you need, but the cost is the question. I would use an incremental encoder, but that is me.

[JeepHammer]

I didn't understand a word beyond 'Servo'.
Guess I need to step into the 21st century.
3rd graders know more about computers than I do.

Any easy way to break down what you are talking about?

[JeepHammer]

All stations work when hand cranked,
Shuttle between stations works when hand cranked.
Limiters built in, and the eject ports work when hand cranked.
It will spit out finished brass in one pass through the stations when hand cranked at about 30 brass a minute.

The problem is, the gear box/constant rate motor wants to double that,
And the brass don't want to transfer from shuttle to shell holders that fast.
The tool head contacts the brass before its in position in the shell holders,
They crush/fold, then shoot out!

Nothing seriously damaged, just too fast at 60 strokes a minute.

The new motor/speed controller should fix that issue.

[jmorris]

Your going to have to learn to post videos or at least photos of what your trying to do.

[str8tshot]

To break down what I said:
A servo is simply a motor (most of the ones we use run on 200v) with some sort of lead screw and carrier; they are used for precision placement and do not have the same weaknesses as air cylinders. No break force issues as described earlier, nor do they rely on a physical hard stop for position. The controller is what tells the servo where to move, how fast, and with how much torque ( the controller sends power to the motor). An incremental encoder is a type of motor that gets its home position from an external sensor and rotation count. An absolute encoder gets its position from feedback in the windings.
A PLC is simply an industrial computer that replaced old relay logic a few decades ago.
I recommended a servo because of the simplicity of setup over a 3phs motor ( most homes are not wired for 3phs) and ease of position changes. You can set infinite number of positions and speeds depending on need. For example, you can program the servo controller to start the pull slowly, but with a lot of torque, then have it go faster through the dead space, and finally slow down at the end of the pull. Another advantage is the use of "soft stops", which will prevent the servo from damaging your press.

[JeepHammer]

JMorris, press is at the machine shop still, I have to remember to get a camera from home to shop.

Str8tShot,
I'm interested, but I'll need to be walked through it.

This version will be mechanical, I can think of several applications knowing that stuff would come in handy.
Next generation?

[str8tshot]

"Walked through it...next generation"
No problem. I think you would be surprised at what you can do with a little industrial ingenuity.

Just curious though, do you have 3phs at your house or is this press at a commercial establishment? Most houses are only wired with two legs, which cannot provide 3phs. I thought about having my power provider run the extra line, bit that would cost a fortune for a small benefit to me (they would need to change the transformer).

[JeepHammer]

Mr. Morris was kind enough to set me on the track of common two leg 220 volt VFD speed control box which runs a 3 phase motor down to about 50% of its rated top speed.
Through a gear box, this will allow me to run the motor fast enough to keep it cool, give me speed control right in the range I need it through a 20:1 reduction box.

The double output gear reduction gives me the opertunituy to use support bearings so the entire load isn't on the gear box bearings.
No lash bearings and connecting rod power the sizing die plate.

Then the hard part is ejecting cases that don't make the grade,
Crushed necks, 204/222 cases get ejected, so do cases the primer doesn't get knocked all the way out.

The hardest part so far is coming up with a case shuttle,
Moving cases from under the dies about an inch onto the shuttle,
Moving that shuttle 1-1/2 inches,
Then moving them back under the dies by the time the next down stroke of the dies happens.
I figured out how to do this mechanically, so the shuttle stays in time with the press/dies.
Not 'Elegant', but it works... When the dies/press plate isn't moving too fast,
Which is what happened with the constant speed motor I had laying around...
Waiting on $450 worth of VFD & motor to arrive is killing me, so I thought I'd try the regular motor, and it didnt work, just too fast.
The shuttle goes with, or without the brass, brass doesn't like to move quickly with tight tolerance guides,
So much for 60 brass a minute...

[JeepHammer]

Check die,
Probe finds crushed case necks, 204 Ruger cases, Berdan primed cases, or anything in the case, ejects them.
A collar in the same die finds 222 mag shoulders, ejects them without stopping the machine.

I don't want to spend my time replacing decapping pins or rods,
So a case check is mandatory, check/eject is something you can't do with a Dillon 1050.

There is also a primer pocket check to make sure the primer made it all the way out of the pocket.
There is no reason the probe checking for the old primer can't be turning,
Trim the military crimp off at the same time.
Since there is a die space above during that action, I'm using that die to brush lube the inside of the case neck at the same station.

Some guys don't think inside case neck lube is nessary,
I think it is so I'm doing it.

If the primer didnt clear, the case is ejected since I'm cutting the primer pocket uniform in the sizing die.
Sizing die has a FIRM grip on the case, since you aren't punching the primer, there isn't anything protruding from the empty primer pocket,
Might as well cut that primer pocket uniform while the case is solidly held in place and perfectly located by the sizing die.

The next station trims to length, cuts inside & outside tapers in the mouth.

As close to perfect brass as you could expect, and no machine, including Camdex or Dillon does all functions.

An 8th station is present, I haven't set it up yet, but its there for neck turning.
Just have been so absorbed with speed issues and making all the little parts/tuning to get around to it.

[Slugs]

Looking at the price of the PW auto drive I decided to make my own. Not for resale because that might be illegal, but anyone can copy someone idea for their own use. In that regard I tried to find out what parts I needed, what motor, what rpm, what torque limiter but no one posted it. I have it all figured out. I copied the PW model and built one and it works great. I didn't do this to make it automatic but to save my arm. However, if you want to go automatic that is not a problem as long as you also add a bullet feeder and you can also make one of those much cheaper than the commercial ones, using a 3D printer. The plans are already designed for you. All you have to do is have someone print them for you. My library will print anything I give them for just 1 dollar. Yes, that is unbelievable. If anyone wants to make their own auto feeder I will be more than happy to give you the dimensions, rpm needed and list of materials. It will require some welding and the use of a milling machine. I don't know if I can post my e mail address, so if someone will let me know if that is ok then I will be happy to do so and send you all of the plans and list of materials. I built mine for about $380 dollars. The motor I use is a 90 volt DC geared motor which was $280 and a torque limiter which was about $60.00.