Buckshot for home defense? - Page 2

T in VA · November 24, 2004, 06:55 PM

I would go with buckshot just for the simple fact that if the situation presented it's self my girlfriend might have to use it and she might miss with a slug.

Texian Pistolero · November 24, 2004, 06:56 PM

I pretty much go with Federal 9 pellet 00 buck.
The recoil is low enough for me, and it patterns well in my guns.

If I want a single projo I got plenty of rifles.

For sake of discussion,

some units in the Civil War swore by a buck 'n ball load.

I think this was a round ball and three buckshot, or even a round ball and heavy duck shot.

This way you can hit center of mass at 50 yards and still spread the love about in close.

One of the custom loaders may even offer this, my memory fails.
(Black Hills?)

I've used 870 so long, I don't have time to change. There was a time when those topside Mossberg safeties were extremely exposed to breakage. I guess they've solved that by now.

T in VA · November 24, 2004, 06:58 PM

I would go with buckshot just because my girlfriend might have to use it if she was there alone and she might miss with a slug.

sageowl · November 24, 2004, 07:28 PM

I'd like to try some of that "buck 'n ball" ammo sometime. Sounds fun.

The call I described would be the ideal situation for C.Y.A. in court. I've heard calls similar to that for training, but never one complete with everything I mentioned.

In response to fleeing the residence, it is a prudent course of action if it is safe to do so. Check your state's laws - California does *not* require you to do so:

"A person may defend his or her home against anyone who attempts to enter in a violent manner intending violence to any person in the home. The amount of force that may be used in resisting such entry is limited to that which would appear necessary to a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances to resist the violent entry. One is not bound to retreat, even though a retreat might safely be made. One may resist force with force, increasing it in proportion to the intruder’s persistence and violence, if the circumstances apparent to the occupant would cause a reasonable person in the same or similar situation to fear for his or her safety. "

Which is pretty straightforward ... the liberal CA legislature added some whiny equivocation a while back immediately following that passage, but the above quote still stands. Here's the rest:

"The occupant may use a firearm when resisting the intruder’s attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime against anyone in the home provided that a reasonable person in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the intruder intends to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there is imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the occupant acts under the belief that use of a firearm is necessary to save himself or herself or another from death or great bodily injury. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.

Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry had occurred. Great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury. (Penal Code § 198.5.)

NOTE: If the presumption is rebutted by contrary evidence, the occupant may be criminally liable for an unlawful assault or homicide. "

So basically give him a warning and make sure he really does want to hurt you before you do anything. We could get more detailed and talk about how use of a firearm is lawful (in CA anyway) when one has reason to believe that a felony has been committed and is attempting to take said suspected felon into custody, and how burglary is a felony and all, but I'll leave that to the lawyers.

Quotes above are from California Firearms Laws 2004, Pages 30-31, published by California DOJ. HTML Version by Google of the PDF. More technical version here, search Penal Code for 197, click first link, then see Sections 197 and 198.

[edited to fix broken link to findlaw.ca.gov]

CobrayCommando · November 24, 2004, 07:47 PM

elsdude you didn't seem to listen to my argument at all. I said that #6 birdshot would be ideal for the first shot, because that would stop any normal person not high on PCP without killing them. Think about it, if you got hit by a 1000 fps pellet gun 50 times in your stomach or face, wouldn't you want to lay down and go to sleep for a while? Also, birdshot has a very low chance of penetrating walls or ceilings. In the small chance that your assailant is supernaturally resistant to pain or high on a soup of PCP, meth and coke, the #1 buck penetrates 12 inches of ballistic gelatin rather reliably, and this means that the goblin will have several large holes in pretty much every one of his vital organs and possibly his spinal column.

Gewehr98 · November 24, 2004, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Is the heat shield for fighting off zombie wave attacks?!

I learned the hard way, doing some HD drills vs. a simulated Bad Guy. Thin shotgun barrels get hot pretty darned quick.

If it's zombies bustin' their way inside, and 00 Buckshot doesn't do it, then the other part of that USMC 870 comes into play:

esldude · November 24, 2004, 07:56 PM

cobraycommando,

I listened, I just don't think it realistic.

I do think it realistic that any normal person may stop from birdshot. But any normal person isn't going to be breaking into your house without some ulterior motive.

Also, hunters know well that there is a big difference in game shot without being spooked, and game being shot after being spooked. The adrenaline makes them much harder to bring down. Any normal person who knows they are in someone else's house will necessarily have a big adrenaline dump when the realize they have awakened the occupants of this house. And more so when commanded to stop and drop to the floor. So I cannot say for certain how much of the sting of birdshot they will feel. I think the most stunning part of it will be the huge flash and deafening blast. Unfortunately that blast will also be stunning to the person behind the gun as well.

Have been in a car wreck where shattered glass caused many cuts and lacerations. Didn't even notice them much for nearly 15 minutes. None were terribly deep though some bled a good bit. While they hurt a great deal later, at the time, nothing. Don't know if that is comparable to birdshot or not.

If you ever need it, and I hope none of us do, I hope you get the reasonably normal intruder you need.

Dwight55 · November 24, 2004, 07:58 PM

A few years ago, shopping for my son an 870, I found a Beretta 12 ga police shotgun.

As it is my backup HD weapon, . . . first three are 00 buck, . . . last 4 are slugs. I live 800 feet from the nearest other home and could fire slugs safely in about 340 degrees of the full circle around my house.

My reasoning is based on previously mentioned police policies, and VietNam experience where a 12 ga and a box of 00 buck could be traded for any M16 on the block if one was going on nite recon.

May God bless,
Dwight

Danindetroit · November 24, 2004, 08:08 PM

I use a #4 turkey loads and aim at the thighs. I am not sure how deep the femoral artery is, but I am sure you will bleed out quickly if hit there. I load this way, and shoot this way, because I have learned from law enforcement that some BG's are wearing bullet resistant vests. I personally know of a person that had a break-in, my acquaintance was sleeping in a chair was awakened, and got off 1 shot with a .410 with birdshot. The BG was hit in the thighs, dropped unconcious, bleeding profusly. My other loads are federal #4 non-plated buck. I have at hand 3.5 #4 w/54 pellets, and various 00 and 0 buck loads. I also have a .40 glock 27, and for close encounters a gerber BMF. My house along with most housed uses a backerboard, and plaster on top of that it is tough material. Use what you have to use, but when figuring it out think about your neighbors, before the adrenaline starts flowing. I like #4 because I get about 270 pellets, and decent penetration, I doubt that the BG is going to be walking.

CobrayCommando · November 24, 2004, 08:13 PM

Ok, fair enough, I see your point of view. Your basically saying that it would be safer to just load and shoot to kill than chance wounding an attacker and risk getting killed? If that's the case, then normally I would completely agree with you. This logic would make sense in some states and the old west, but unfortunately I spend a lot of time in Los Angeles. If you have seen some of the actual cases prosecuted succesfully here, you would just laugh. The burglar basically has to shoot you in the leg and rape you to justify you killing him. Oh, and he still has to have the gun in his hand and pointed at you for you to legally take the shot.

If I lived in a state like Montana or Utah I would just load my gun up with #1 buck and saboted slugs. But since I don't, I would rather take reasonable measures to prevent my going to jail and my attacker dying. In all likelihood you must admit that birdshot does present a good chance of stopping someone, and you can get off a quick second shot lloaded with #1 buck that if it hits almost certainly will stop someone whether they want to or not.

Somehow I really doubt that a robber that isnt high would enter a house fully expecting to be shot and coming mentally prepared to be shot. Especially in a state like California.

CobrayCommando · November 24, 2004, 08:15 PM

P.S. Nice shotgun/bayo man! How would everybody feel if I started a post asking what your favorite anti-zombie loadout would be? Just for kicks and all...

Danindetroit · November 24, 2004, 08:23 PM

T Pistolero, I am sure that the British used a 3 ball shot system in the .577/.450? martini and Henry rifles. I thought they used them against colonial uprisings. I know that the rifle was used for many years, and I think enfield built some with the new .303 cartridge, and a rn 220gr bullet. All the history buffs please correct, I hope I did not botch it too badly.

Danindetroit · November 24, 2004, 08:27 PM

Quote:

#1 buck and saboted slugs

Use buck, and foster slugs from a smoothbore, and a skeet, or small constriction. Make sure your gun can use slugs in the smoothbore, my moss 835 is backbored to .775(10ga), and slugs are not recommended

CobrayCommando · November 24, 2004, 09:31 PM

Cool, thanks for the info Danindetroit! Do you think the Mossberg 500 can take Fosters?

Danindetroit · November 24, 2004, 10:39 PM

The 500's have a normal Dia 12ga barrel. You can usually get a combo mossberg with a smoothbore, and rifled barrel. I know brenneke? makes some good slugs for rifled and smoothbore barrels. They even have rifled chokes and slugs made for them. I am pretty sure that the box will have what type of barrel for the slugs. The sabot slugs are very powerful, and are soupposed to be very accurrate. You may be able to use a sabot slug with a rifled choke. Anybody use the new partition gold slugs? or platinum tips. I hvw heard bad thingd about the BRI slugs. They use a multi part sabot, and if it does not come off the same way every time, the round can be very erratic. I shot slugs out of a full choked .410, but it is not recomended. www.shotgunworld.com has a lot of info on shot guns and choke recommendations.

View Poll Results: Buckshot or slugs?
Buckshot or other	38	88.37%
Slugs	5	11.63%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

November 24, 2004, 07:28 PM	#29
sageowl Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2004 Posts: 194	I'd like to try some of that "buck 'n ball" ammo sometime. Sounds fun. The call I described would be the ideal situation for C.Y.A. in court. I've heard calls similar to that for training, but never one complete with everything I mentioned. In response to fleeing the residence, it is a prudent course of action if it is safe to do so. Check your state's laws - California does not require you to do so: "A person may defend his or her home against anyone who attempts to enter in a violent manner intending violence to any person in the home. The amount of force that may be used in resisting such entry is limited to that which would appear necessary to a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances to resist the violent entry. One is not bound to retreat, even though a retreat might safely be made. One may resist force with force, increasing it in proportion to the intruder’s persistence and violence, if the circumstances apparent to the occupant would cause a reasonable person in the same or similar situation to fear for his or her safety. " Which is pretty straightforward ... the liberal CA legislature added some whiny equivocation a while back immediately following that passage, but the above quote still stands. Here's the rest: "The occupant may use a firearm when resisting the intruder’s attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime against anyone in the home provided that a reasonable person in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the intruder intends to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there is imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the occupant acts under the belief that use of a firearm is necessary to save himself or herself or another from death or great bodily injury. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry had occurred. Great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury. (Penal Code § 198.5.) NOTE: If the presumption is rebutted by contrary evidence, the occupant may be criminally liable for an unlawful assault or homicide. " So basically give him a warning and make sure he really does want to hurt you before you do anything. We could get more detailed and talk about how use of a firearm is lawful (in CA anyway) when one has reason to believe that a felony has been committed and is attempting to take said suspected felon into custody, and how burglary is a felony and all, but I'll leave that to the lawyers. Quotes above are from California Firearms Laws 2004, Pages 30-31, published by California DOJ. HTML Version by Google of the PDF. More technical version here, search Penal Code for 197, click first link, then see Sections 197 and 198. [edited to fix broken link to findlaw.ca.gov]

November 24, 2004, 07:58 PM	#33
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	A few years ago, shopping for my son an 870, I found a Beretta 12 ga police shotgun. As it is my backup HD weapon, . . . first three are 00 buck, . . . last 4 are slugs. I live 800 feet from the nearest other home and could fire slugs safely in about 340 degrees of the full circle around my house. My reasoning is based on previously mentioned police policies, and VietNam experience where a 12 ga and a box of 00 buck could be traded for any M16 on the block if one was going on nite recon. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

November 24, 2004, 06:55 PM	#26
T in VA Member Join Date: November 22, 2004 Posts: 36	I would go with buckshot just for the simple fact that if the situation presented it's self my girlfriend might have to use it and she might miss with a slug.

November 24, 2004, 06:56 PM	#27
Texian Pistolero Member Join Date: June 29, 2004 Posts: 22	I pretty much go with Federal 9 pellet 00 buck. The recoil is low enough for me, and it patterns well in my guns. If I want a single projo I got plenty of rifles. For sake of discussion, some units in the Civil War swore by a buck 'n ball load. I think this was a round ball and three buckshot, or even a round ball and heavy duck shot. This way you can hit center of mass at 50 yards and still spread the love about in close. One of the custom loaders may even offer this, my memory fails. (Black Hills?) I've used 870 so long, I don't have time to change. There was a time when those topside Mossberg safeties were extremely exposed to breakage. I guess they've solved that by now.

November 24, 2004, 06:58 PM	#28
T in VA Member Join Date: November 22, 2004 Posts: 36	I would go with buckshot just because my girlfriend might have to use it if she was there alone and she might miss with a slug.

November 24, 2004, 07:47 PM	#30
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	elsdude you didn't seem to listen to my argument at all. I said that #6 birdshot would be ideal for the first shot, because that would stop any normal person not high on PCP without killing them. Think about it, if you got hit by a 1000 fps pellet gun 50 times in your stomach or face, wouldn't you want to lay down and go to sleep for a while? Also, birdshot has a very low chance of penetrating walls or ceilings. In the small chance that your assailant is supernaturally resistant to pain or high on a soup of PCP, meth and coke, the #1 buck penetrates 12 inches of ballistic gelatin rather reliably, and this means that the goblin will have several large holes in pretty much every one of his vital organs and possibly his spinal column.

November 24, 2004, 07:56 PM	#32
esldude Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2004 Posts: 438	cobraycommando, I listened, I just don't think it realistic. I do think it realistic that any normal person may stop from birdshot. But any normal person isn't going to be breaking into your house without some ulterior motive. Also, hunters know well that there is a big difference in game shot without being spooked, and game being shot after being spooked. The adrenaline makes them much harder to bring down. Any normal person who knows they are in someone else's house will necessarily have a big adrenaline dump when the realize they have awakened the occupants of this house. And more so when commanded to stop and drop to the floor. So I cannot say for certain how much of the sting of birdshot they will feel. I think the most stunning part of it will be the huge flash and deafening blast. Unfortunately that blast will also be stunning to the person behind the gun as well. Have been in a car wreck where shattered glass caused many cuts and lacerations. Didn't even notice them much for nearly 15 minutes. None were terribly deep though some bled a good bit. While they hurt a great deal later, at the time, nothing. Don't know if that is comparable to birdshot or not. If you ever need it, and I hope none of us do, I hope you get the reasonably normal intruder you need.

November 24, 2004, 08:08 PM	#34
Danindetroit Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2004 Location: Detroit Posts: 757	I use a #4 turkey loads and aim at the thighs. I am not sure how deep the femoral artery is, but I am sure you will bleed out quickly if hit there. I load this way, and shoot this way, because I have learned from law enforcement that some BG's are wearing bullet resistant vests. I personally know of a person that had a break-in, my acquaintance was sleeping in a chair was awakened, and got off 1 shot with a .410 with birdshot. The BG was hit in the thighs, dropped unconcious, bleeding profusly. My other loads are federal #4 non-plated buck. I have at hand 3.5 #4 w/54 pellets, and various 00 and 0 buck loads. I also have a .40 glock 27, and for close encounters a gerber BMF. My house along with most housed uses a backerboard, and plaster on top of that it is tough material. Use what you have to use, but when figuring it out think about your neighbors, before the adrenaline starts flowing. I like #4 because I get about 270 pellets, and decent penetration, I doubt that the BG is going to be walking.

November 24, 2004, 08:13 PM	#35
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Ok, fair enough, I see your point of view. Your basically saying that it would be safer to just load and shoot to kill than chance wounding an attacker and risk getting killed? If that's the case, then normally I would completely agree with you. This logic would make sense in some states and the old west, but unfortunately I spend a lot of time in Los Angeles. If you have seen some of the actual cases prosecuted succesfully here, you would just laugh. The burglar basically has to shoot you in the leg and rape you to justify you killing him. Oh, and he still has to have the gun in his hand and pointed at you for you to legally take the shot. If I lived in a state like Montana or Utah I would just load my gun up with #1 buck and saboted slugs. But since I don't, I would rather take reasonable measures to prevent my going to jail and my attacker dying. In all likelihood you must admit that birdshot does present a good chance of stopping someone, and you can get off a quick second shot lloaded with #1 buck that if it hits almost certainly will stop someone whether they want to or not. Somehow I really doubt that a robber that isnt high would enter a house fully expecting to be shot and coming mentally prepared to be shot. Especially in a state like California.

November 24, 2004, 08:15 PM	#36
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	P.S. Nice shotgun/bayo man! How would everybody feel if I started a post asking what your favorite anti-zombie loadout would be? Just for kicks and all...

November 24, 2004, 08:23 PM	#37
Danindetroit Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2004 Location: Detroit Posts: 757	T Pistolero, I am sure that the British used a 3 ball shot system in the .577/.450? martini and Henry rifles. I thought they used them against colonial uprisings. I know that the rifle was used for many years, and I think enfield built some with the new .303 cartridge, and a rn 220gr bullet. All the history buffs please correct, I hope I did not botch it too badly.

November 24, 2004, 09:31 PM	#39
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Cool, thanks for the info Danindetroit! Do you think the Mossberg 500 can take Fosters?

November 24, 2004, 10:39 PM	#40
Danindetroit Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2004 Location: Detroit Posts: 757	The 500's have a normal Dia 12ga barrel. You can usually get a combo mossberg with a smoothbore, and rifled barrel. I know brenneke? makes some good slugs for rifled and smoothbore barrels. They even have rifled chokes and slugs made for them. I am pretty sure that the box will have what type of barrel for the slugs. The sabot slugs are very powerful, and are soupposed to be very accurrate. You may be able to use a sabot slug with a rifled choke. Anybody use the new partition gold slugs? or platinum tips. I hvw heard bad thingd about the BRI slugs. They use a multi part sabot, and if it does not come off the same way every time, the round can be very erratic. I shot slugs out of a full choked .410, but it is not recomended. www.shotgunworld.com has a lot of info on shot guns and choke recommendations.