What exactly are the pros of BP over modern firearms?

seth · October 25, 2005, 04:28 AM

I am currently saving up cash for a revolver and semiauto when I turn 21 in a few months (I already have my NRA pistol certification). However, I have a thing for 1848 Dragoon pistols in silver....

To me, they are classy, elegant, and follow the KISS principle. However, I can see it being a pain in the ass to reload and clean. Are there any reasons why you guys and gals shoot black powder arms over modern weapons?

**4V50 Gary** · October 25, 2005, 08:02 AM

Fun and association with the past.

Steve499 · October 25, 2005, 08:33 AM

Ease of acquisition. No waiting, just call Dixie and the brown santa is at your door! (About 4 days where I live) And what 4V50 Gary said.

Edward429451 · October 25, 2005, 09:16 AM

I was reading last night that certain BP loads can reach the same or greater velocities than their smokeless counterparts and at less pressure.

Not true across the board but some can.

I really don't know, but Georgr Herter says so in his book. It's probably worth experimenting with to find out. Not sure if he was talking about pistols or rifles.

20cows · October 25, 2005, 11:57 AM

Let's see, less expensive to purchase, can order/receive one through the mail, no yellow sheet, adequate ballistics to do anything needed to be done.

Nope, I can't think of anything.

MPP1423 · October 25, 2005, 12:01 PM

Another Reason Is That You Can Adjust Your Loads In The Field To What Works For You Or The Firearm Your Using.plus Its Just Plain Fun To Work With The Blackpowder Firearms Of Yesteryear.

seth · October 26, 2005, 04:45 AM

Thanks for the replies, guys. All very fine reasons to own a BP, as they make sense to me.

The above gun is a 1848 Colt Dragoon pistol in .44. It's a non-firing replica, and I've been trying to find an actual FIRING replica on the net with no luck; I keep finding wall-hangers. Any advice where to buy fine BP pistols (flint and percussion alike) besides DixieGunWorks? I looked there and didn't find what I was looking for. I did see Colt Dragoons but they had tarnished Brass materials and not the silver finish.

MPP1423 · October 26, 2005, 07:27 AM

taylor&company have a good selection of bp pistols as well or even cabela's.

Cap n ball · October 26, 2005, 09:42 AM

"Are there any reasons why you guys and gals shoot black powder arms over modern weapons?"

Tradition and personal preference over the modern 'tupperware' stuff. Also its more economical and has a much more satisfying 'BOOM!'. With a good fifteen feet of flame from the muzzle if you happen to miss at short range you will likely cook the target anyway.

Any nickel finished guns I've ever seen were done that way at the owners request. They also usually sport pearl grips and a fancy holster rig. Thats OK but its not my style. I prefer more of a utilitarian/work a day appearance, dull brass and factory blue with unvarnished oiled grips. For target shooting a dot of liquid paper on the the end sights helps my old eyes some.

Bravo25 · October 26, 2005, 10:07 AM

Of course if you really want ot get back to history you could try one of the air rifles used in the Lewis and Clark Expedition. I believe it was one of the first air rifles ever made.

http://www4.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html

seth · October 27, 2005, 04:20 AM

Thanks for the good replies. I've recently went on Taylors and browsed around. Found the LePage Napoleon Dueling pistol for about $100 less than on Dixie; woohoo!

Now, I just have to figure out what I need to reload it. Percussion caps, balls/slugs, and gunpowder? Wads? Heh, is there a "BP 101" newbie website you guys could refer me to? They never taught us how to use BPs at my NRA pistol class

EDIT: Never mind that, I found the "BP tutorials" thread. Thanks!

Your thoughts?

308Enfield · October 27, 2005, 08:20 AM

Looks like a great find, although it will be twice expensive as you expect. The proper application is dueling pistolS, not pistol

Honestly, I think you'll be happy having one of those to shoot with, let us know how you like it.

Cap n ball · October 27, 2005, 12:03 PM

1st thing you'll need is a ramrod. Lots of different kinds out there. I mostly use wooden ones but other folks like the newer composite ones. You will want to shorten it a bit and mark a notch to indicate that the load is completely seated in the breech. Does it come with a nipple wrench/turnscrew combination tool or a powder measure? If not you'll want one of those too. A ball remover might be a good idea too. The LePage is a good pistol with nice lines and I like the spur on the triggerguard. A comparable pistol would be the TC Plains pistol. Some claim it to be more accurate than the LePage but I think accuracy depends more on the shooter and how well he knows his gun than the gun itself. Practice, practice, practice.

RobW · October 27, 2005, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Are there any reasons why you guys and gals shoot black powder arms over modern weapons?

Interest in the Old West (or Civil War, or American Revolution or... or...).

It's addictive, it's fun, and you will be surprised how accurate this smokepoles are. I started out with a Colt-style 1851 Navy and later added a Rogers & Spencer as well as a Lyman Great Plains Rifle. And that will not be the end...

My friend shoots tighter groups with his Remington New Army 1858 than with his 1998 Beretta F92!

Go for it, you'll have more fun than you can think (especially showing up with a duelling-pistol on the range!).

MPP1423 · October 28, 2005, 01:33 AM

robw,
i can beleive the tighter groups.im a police officer and carry a glock .40 cal and my 1858 will out shoot it ,well until i shoot all six.lol.

seth · October 28, 2005, 01:50 AM

Ah, well, my interest in BP stemmed from reading a play that had to do with China's second to last emperor; he commissioned a British ex-military officer to raise a mercenary group called "The Ever Victorious Army" to wipe out the warlords opposing the dynasty. They were europeans and chinese armed with muzzleloaders and kicked some serious ass. Since then, my fetish with old-school weapons grew...

But, as I told CapNBall in a PM, I noticed that the LePage (without ammo, powder, accessories, etc) is $350 plus shipping from Taylor's and Co.

Now, I'm no cheap-ass, but I'm a college student who makes 8 bucks an hour, working part time. $450 for this weapon is pushing my budget.

I'm just worried that the thing will be too expensive to keep up, or be so unreliable, compared to the Springfield XD-9 I was saving up for. I was wondering if the BPs were more reliable and "pay for themselves" because they're so much simpler in design... "Keep it Simple Stupid."

MPP1423 · October 28, 2005, 04:31 AM

Well,im A 1858 Fan Myself And You Can Get The Piettas For About 160-200.00.once You Get One And The Powder The Only Thing You Really Go Thru Is Balls And Caps.the Powder Last A While.you Can Also Go To Gunbroker.com And Buy One Used For A Good Price.i Have Bought Several Guns On There Including 2 1858's And All Has Went Well.

Bravo25 · October 28, 2005, 10:26 AM

One thing I really like about the 1858 New Model Army is that it has a strong frame. With the exception of the screws, (and they can be scavenged) almost everything else can be made by the owner. Ammo, springs, internal parts hammer etc. So if you were ever in a need to be completely self reliant this would be a good choice. Of course make sure you have plenty of powder, and primers on hand. IMHO

TexasSIGMan · October 28, 2005, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Any advice where to buy fine BP pistols (flint and percussion alike) besides DixieGunWorks?

I buy my Cimarron stuff from Texas Jacks. I find the Cimarron/Ubertis
to have some of the nicest fit and finish I've run across.

My Walker, 3rd Dragoon, and Old Army all came from there.

http://www.texasjacks.com/BlkPowder/CimBlkPowder.htm

Clayfish · October 28, 2005, 05:28 PM

I love the smell of black powder in the morning.

Hello123 · October 28, 2005, 06:01 PM

Lots of smoke and tinkering to do with them. I love it!

seth · October 28, 2005, 09:59 PM

THanks for the link, TexasSiG. I checked them out and while they have a good selection of revolvers, I was more looking towards a single-shot, LePage duelling pistol style of weapon that's affordable.

Also I was wondering what the reliablility on these guns are, as the LePage itself is a good $350 (if they even ship to Hawaii; I know some places don't), which is nearing the price of several new autoloaders and "modern" revolvers I was looking at...

gmatov · November 1, 2005, 12:02 AM

Might I inform you guys that Cabela's in Minnesota, only, but will accept telephone orders, are selling "A" 1858 Remington for 139.95, a Grand Opening Sale for a new store in the state, available in all 3 in state stores.

Plan to call tomorrow, myself. Spare cyl is 35 bucks, 175 for a Remmie with 2 cyls, and steel frame.

Part # 25395-01, gun, and 21645-00, cyl.

Sale dates, 10-28-05, to, I think, 11-06-05.

Here's the link to the page, phone number is at the top.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...14&store_num=3

How good it is, as the regular price is only 159.95, I don't know.

Cheers,

George

injun · November 2, 2005, 09:29 PM

Why BP over a modern Firearm?

Well, I like to Elk hunt with my blackpowder rifle because I am more successful with it. The reason? Because the hunting season coincides with a season favorable to calling bull elk close and there are fewer hunters in the field.

For deer? I still use my browning 7mm mag!

Regards

October 25, 2005, 04:28 AM	#1
seth Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 173	What exactly are the pros of BP over modern firearms? I am currently saving up cash for a revolver and semiauto when I turn 21 in a few months (I already have my NRA pistol certification). However, I have a thing for 1848 Dragoon pistols in silver.... To me, they are classy, elegant, and follow the KISS principle. However, I can see it being a pain in the ass to reload and clean. Are there any reasons why you guys and gals shoot black powder arms over modern weapons?

October 25, 2005, 08:02 AM	#2
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	Fun and association with the past. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 26, 2005, 09:42 AM	#9
Cap n ball Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2000 Posts: 247	"Are there any reasons why you guys and gals shoot black powder arms over modern weapons?" Tradition and personal preference over the modern 'tupperware' stuff. Also its more economical and has a much more satisfying 'BOOM!'. With a good fifteen feet of flame from the muzzle if you happen to miss at short range you will likely cook the target anyway. Any nickel finished guns I've ever seen were done that way at the owners request. They also usually sport pearl grips and a fancy holster rig. Thats OK but its not my style. I prefer more of a utilitarian/work a day appearance, dull brass and factory blue with unvarnished oiled grips. For target shooting a dot of liquid paper on the the end sights helps my old eyes some. Last edited by Cap n ball; October 26, 2005 at 10:25 AM.

October 26, 2005, 10:07 AM	#10
Bravo25 Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 432	Of course if you really want ot get back to history you could try one of the air rifles used in the Lewis and Clark Expedition. I believe it was one of the first air rifles ever made. http://www4.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html __________________ If more laws restricting our rights will make us free from harm, why aren't we safe yet? We are only less free. When faced with impossible overwhelming odds, prudance would dictate the only thing left is to figure out what is possible, and to do it. Punishment for all crimes should increase until the recitivism rate approaches zero.

October 27, 2005, 04:20 AM	#11
seth Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 173	Thanks for the good replies. I've recently went on Taylors and browsed around. Found the LePage Napoleon Dueling pistol for about $100 less than on Dixie; woohoo! Now, I just have to figure out what I need to reload it. Percussion caps, balls/slugs, and gunpowder? Wads? Heh, is there a "BP 101" newbie website you guys could refer me to? They never taught us how to use BPs at my NRA pistol class EDIT: Never mind that, I found the "BP tutorials" thread. Thanks! Your thoughts? Last edited by seth; October 27, 2005 at 04:59 AM.

October 25, 2005, 08:33 AM	#3
Steve499 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Central Missouri Posts: 533	Ease of acquisition. No waiting, just call Dixie and the brown santa is at your door! (About 4 days where I live) And what 4V50 Gary said.

October 25, 2005, 09:16 AM	#4
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I was reading last night that certain BP loads can reach the same or greater velocities than their smokeless counterparts and at less pressure. Not true across the board but some can. I really don't know, but Georgr Herter says so in his book. It's probably worth experimenting with to find out. Not sure if he was talking about pistols or rifles.

October 25, 2005, 11:57 AM	#5
20cows Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2005 Location: West Texas Posts: 376	Let's see, less expensive to purchase, can order/receive one through the mail, no yellow sheet, adequate ballistics to do anything needed to be done. Nope, I can't think of anything.

October 25, 2005, 12:01 PM	#6
MPP1423 Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2005 Location: GOODLETTSVILLE,TN Posts: 298	Another Reason Is That You Can Adjust Your Loads In The Field To What Works For You Or The Firearm Your Using.plus Its Just Plain Fun To Work With The Blackpowder Firearms Of Yesteryear.

October 26, 2005, 04:45 AM	#7
seth Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 173	Thanks for the replies, guys. All very fine reasons to own a BP, as they make sense to me. The above gun is a 1848 Colt Dragoon pistol in .44. It's a non-firing replica, and I've been trying to find an actual FIRING replica on the net with no luck; I keep finding wall-hangers. Any advice where to buy fine BP pistols (flint and percussion alike) besides DixieGunWorks? I looked there and didn't find what I was looking for. I did see Colt Dragoons but they had tarnished Brass materials and not the silver finish.

October 26, 2005, 07:27 AM	#8
MPP1423 Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2005 Location: GOODLETTSVILLE,TN Posts: 298	taylor&company have a good selection of bp pistols as well or even cabela's.

October 27, 2005, 08:20 AM	#12
308Enfield Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 239	Looks like a great find, although it will be twice expensive as you expect. The proper application is dueling pistolS, not pistol Honestly, I think you'll be happy having one of those to shoot with, let us know how you like it. __________________ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

October 27, 2005, 12:03 PM	#13
Cap n ball Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2000 Posts: 247	1st thing you'll need is a ramrod. Lots of different kinds out there. I mostly use wooden ones but other folks like the newer composite ones. You will want to shorten it a bit and mark a notch to indicate that the load is completely seated in the breech. Does it come with a nipple wrench/turnscrew combination tool or a powder measure? If not you'll want one of those too. A ball remover might be a good idea too. The LePage is a good pistol with nice lines and I like the spur on the triggerguard. A comparable pistol would be the TC Plains pistol. Some claim it to be more accurate than the LePage but I think accuracy depends more on the shooter and how well he knows his gun than the gun itself. Practice, practice, practice.

October 28, 2005, 01:33 AM	#15
MPP1423 Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2005 Location: GOODLETTSVILLE,TN Posts: 298	robw, i can beleive the tighter groups.im a police officer and carry a glock .40 cal and my 1858 will out shoot it ,well until i shoot all six.lol.

October 28, 2005, 01:50 AM	#16
seth Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 173	Ah, well, my interest in BP stemmed from reading a play that had to do with China's second to last emperor; he commissioned a British ex-military officer to raise a mercenary group called "The Ever Victorious Army" to wipe out the warlords opposing the dynasty. They were europeans and chinese armed with muzzleloaders and kicked some serious ass. Since then, my fetish with old-school weapons grew... But, as I told CapNBall in a PM, I noticed that the LePage (without ammo, powder, accessories, etc) is $350 plus shipping from Taylor's and Co. Now, I'm no cheap-ass, but I'm a college student who makes 8 bucks an hour, working part time. $450 for this weapon is pushing my budget. I'm just worried that the thing will be too expensive to keep up, or be so unreliable, compared to the Springfield XD-9 I was saving up for. I was wondering if the BPs were more reliable and "pay for themselves" because they're so much simpler in design... "Keep it Simple Stupid."

October 28, 2005, 04:31 AM	#17
MPP1423 Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2005 Location: GOODLETTSVILLE,TN Posts: 298	Well,im A 1858 Fan Myself And You Can Get The Piettas For About 160-200.00.once You Get One And The Powder The Only Thing You Really Go Thru Is Balls And Caps.the Powder Last A While.you Can Also Go To Gunbroker.com And Buy One Used For A Good Price.i Have Bought Several Guns On There Including 2 1858's And All Has Went Well.

October 28, 2005, 10:26 AM	#18
Bravo25 Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 432	One thing I really like about the 1858 New Model Army is that it has a strong frame. With the exception of the screws, (and they can be scavenged) almost everything else can be made by the owner. Ammo, springs, internal parts hammer etc. So if you were ever in a need to be completely self reliant this would be a good choice. Of course make sure you have plenty of powder, and primers on hand. IMHO __________________ If more laws restricting our rights will make us free from harm, why aren't we safe yet? We are only less free. When faced with impossible overwhelming odds, prudance would dictate the only thing left is to figure out what is possible, and to do it. Punishment for all crimes should increase until the recitivism rate approaches zero.

October 28, 2005, 05:28 PM	#20
Clayfish Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2005 Location: Valdosta, GA Posts: 953	I love the smell of black powder in the morning.

October 28, 2005, 06:01 PM	#21
Hello123 Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2005 Posts: 571	Lots of smoke and tinkering to do with them. I love it!

October 28, 2005, 09:59 PM	#22
seth Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 173	THanks for the link, TexasSiG. I checked them out and while they have a good selection of revolvers, I was more looking towards a single-shot, LePage duelling pistol style of weapon that's affordable. Also I was wondering what the reliablility on these guns are, as the LePage itself is a good $350 (if they even ship to Hawaii; I know some places don't), which is nearing the price of several new autoloaders and "modern" revolvers I was looking at...

November 1, 2005, 12:02 AM	#23
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	Might I inform you guys that Cabela's in Minnesota, only, but will accept telephone orders, are selling "A" 1858 Remington for 139.95, a Grand Opening Sale for a new store in the state, available in all 3 in state stores. Plan to call tomorrow, myself. Spare cyl is 35 bucks, 175 for a Remmie with 2 cyls, and steel frame. Part # 25395-01, gun, and 21645-00, cyl. Sale dates, 10-28-05, to, I think, 11-06-05. Here's the link to the page, phone number is at the top. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...14&store_num=3 How good it is, as the regular price is only 159.95, I don't know. Cheers, George

November 2, 2005, 09:29 PM	#24
injun Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 16	Why BP over a modern Firearm? Well, I like to Elk hunt with my blackpowder rifle because I am more successful with it. The reason? Because the hunting season coincides with a season favorable to calling bull elk close and there are fewer hunters in the field. For deer? I still use my browning 7mm mag! Regards