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Old July 10, 2018, 07:44 AM   #76
rodfac
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Today, the .38S is little more than a lazy Sunday afternoon 'hobby cartridge' for the curious and the cultists to enjoy for a brief period of self-entertainment at the range.
Tough words...but I gotta admit...true, so color me a "curious, cultist".

Currently, I doubt there's a commercial loading (Buffalo Bore maybe), that approaches the Super's standard pressure capability, but hand loading it allows some add'l oomph if desired. While it's a rare day when I push any of my guns to the SAAMI limits, the Super's got that margin of increased performance in a neat package, with the same reliability as my .45's. In my Commanders, it also gives the same magazine round count as the 9mm.

And those nickled Super cases are sure easier to see in the short-mowed fescue that covers my farm range and their extra length, over 9mm, makes them easier for arthritic fingers to manipulate through the Dillons.

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Old July 10, 2018, 10:41 AM   #77
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The variation in available brass might be a reason why not?

I'd had a few issues with cases sticking in the chamber, apparently because they had expanded and subsequently been resized multiple times, resulting in an obvious ridge running around the case forward of the extractor groove.

I bought a small-base sizing die, hoping to size down below the offending area and salvage 300-400 cases.

While I was aware of Starline's rimless .38 Super Comp, and was keeping an eye out for them, I discovered two other rimless variations; one marked ".38 Super RL", presumably Rim Less, and another one, sneakily marked ".38 Super +P R", to indicate Rimless.

I culled about twenty of those three types of brass, and if the case is a bit oversized, an undersized rim would certainly not help extraction.
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Old July 11, 2018, 12:58 AM   #78
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Having purchased my share of factory ammo, and reloaded the Super for many years, I thought I was familiar with all, or at least most, things 38 Super. But I've haven't run into the rimless "RL" or "+P R" brass yet. The only brass I've purchased to reload the Super for the last several years has been the near-rimless Starline .38 Super Comp. Good stuff. My STI and a Colt required an extractor adjustment to use the SC brass. My Kimber didn't require any adjustments to function flawlessly with the regular Super brass, Super Comp brass, or substituting a 9MM barrel, 9X19 brass. Anyway, a fun cartridge for the ballistically curious, maybe even for cultists on a lazy Sunday afternoon
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Old July 11, 2018, 06:07 PM   #79
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Easy to reload straight wall case, 200+ fps faster than a puny bellum, no bottle neck case like the .357 Sig, very accurate. What's not to like.
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Old July 11, 2018, 11:00 PM   #80
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sneakily marked ".38 Super +P R", to indicate Rimless.
What manufacturer uses "R" for rimless when the whole rest of the WORLD uses "R" for rimmed???

I don't want to have anything to do with them...
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Old July 12, 2018, 09:52 AM   #81
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What manufacturer uses "R" for rimless when the whole rest of the WORLD uses "R" for rimmed???
Or, in the case of .38 Super, "SR" for Semi Rim.

The Super RL cases were headstamped "A P"
The Super Auto +P R cases are stamped "MCM"
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Old July 13, 2018, 01:04 AM   #82
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alternatives

A 38 super can fire other cartridges. This includes 38 auto comp and 9mm largo which share the case length of 38 super. The rimless cartridges stack and feed better in a magazine.
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Old July 13, 2018, 06:20 AM   #83
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A 38 super can fire other cartridges. This includes 38 auto comp and 9mm largo which share the case length of 38 super. The rimless cartridges stack and feed better in a magazine.
rc, please do not give bad advice.

Do not try to shoot the 9mm Largo in a 38 Super chamber.

The 9mm Largo case is longer than the 38 Super, and the 9mm Largo is tapered like the 9X23 Winchester. Both of these conditions can cause the 9mm Largo to stick in a 38 Super chamber.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9723mm_Largo
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Old July 13, 2018, 02:55 PM   #84
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"Thing is that unless a round is adopted in large numbers by the military or law enforcement it will be a niche caliber. That's not a bad thing, it just is a true thing."

Disagree.
I've been out of town and working so I didn't look back at this. 44amp and Mike Irwin oughta be ashamed of themselves.

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I guess your niches are wider than mine. Yours seem like wide shelves...

Had you added a qualifier, such as "unless a service pistol round..." or something like that, then there would be some validity to the statement
The context of the thread provided and the text provided the "qualifer". You didn't understand the context of the post, which should have been obvious given the thread. It was only in relation to a discussion of service calibers in handguns and not rifle rounds, the .22 caliber etc. This most honest folks would have seen that straight off.

By the way...the .25 acp which was common at one time is a niche round today. Same is true of the .32 acp. But the .380 is not and is a common round these days but not a common service caliber.

I added this a day later. thinking about it you're right I should have been more specific, my bad.

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Last edited by tipoc; July 14, 2018 at 10:54 AM.
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Old July 13, 2018, 03:14 PM   #85
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By the way I'll say this again. The 38 acp was introduced in 1897 and chambered by Browning and Colt in the Colt Sporting and Military pistols. When Colt decided to chamber the 1911 in the 38 acp they named the guns the Colt Super 38. It was chambered in 38 acp and advertised as that in 1928 and after for decades after.

The 1911 was stronger than Browning's previous guns and could handle increased pressures for the 38 acp.

In his book Doug Sheldon point out that at some point ammo manufacturers began to call the loadings for the 1911 in 38 acp, 38 Super loads. Slowly the name for the rounds became 38 Super.

It's still common to find the older 1130 fps loads offered by ammo makers at the older 38 acp velocities of 1130 fps with a 130 gr. bullet.

Been around since 1897 and they still make guns for it. Ain't going away.








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Old July 16, 2018, 06:12 AM   #86
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"Been around since 1897 and they still make guns for it. Ain't going away."

Except, as best as I can tell, no one has manufactured .38 ACP ammo since the 1960s -- just .38 Super (or .38 Auto +P, however you want to name it).

The cases may be the same, but the results certainly aren't.
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Old July 16, 2018, 09:57 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Mike Irwin View Post
"Been around since 1897 and they still make guns for it. Ain't going away."

Except, as best as I can tell, no one has manufactured .38 ACP ammo since the 1960s -- just .38 Super (or .38 Auto +P, however you want to name it).

The cases may be the same, but the results certainly aren't.
A couple of small companies make 38 Auto ammo. PCI, Big Bear, Buffalo Arms.

It might be better to suggest that no one still makes guns in that caliber - everything today is 38 Super Auto.
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Old July 16, 2018, 10:13 AM   #88
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Ok, I stand corrected. I didn't turn up anything on my Google searches so figured it was DOA 'n' DRT.
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Old July 16, 2018, 02:20 PM   #89
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Until a couple of years ago Fiocchi continued to sell 38acp ammo named as such. and the small fry continue to make it.

In the pics above the Remington 38 Colt Pistol ammo is from the late 1970s and is not, by far, the last of it they made.

Also keep in mind that a good deal of current ammo is still loaded to the 38 acp velocities.

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/11948

http://www.ammo-one.com/38APCAuto.html

https://www.buffaloarms.com/38-auto-...f-50-amo38auto

https://www.loadxammo.com/retailcat.pdf

Recall the discussion about velocity and pressure for the 38 ACP and the 38 Super. The case is identical. The difference is the powder charge and the velocity of the bullet. The 1911 is a stronger gun than the Colt 1902 Military, etc. It could handle the additional pressure of a more powerful load.

According to Doug Sheldon (and some other sources) , the initial 1900 specs for the Colt M1900 called for a 130 gr. bullet and a velocity from the 6" barrel of 1260 fps. Throughout this first part of the 38 acp's life manufacturers listed the velocity as from 1160 to 1280 fps with the same 130 gr. bullet. Nothing wrong the ammo but the early Colt pistols were weaker than the 1911.

The Thompson LaGarde reports of 1904 listed the velocity from the 6" barrel of the 1902 Military with a 130 gr. pill as 1107 fps. (In the same tests a Luger was shot with a 123.5 gr. bullet from a 4" barrel and did 1048 fps.) So the listed velocities from manufacturers and Colt ad-men may have been a touch optimistic.

In 1929 Colt chambered the 1911 in the 38 acp and named the gun the Colt Super 38. The ballistics did not change and Colt called the ammo the 38acp and advertised the gun as being chambered in 38 acp.

In late 1932 Remington produced a round that pushed a 130 gr. bullet to 1300 fps. from a 5" barrel so they advertised. Some other manufacturers followed suit. It's unclear but a few years later ammo companies began to label the higher pressure loads "for 38 Super autos only" and similar as complaints came in that the older 38 acp guns were being damaged by the higher pressure loads. In the pre-war years some companies apparently began using nickel plated cases for the higher pressure loads to distinguish them from the loads for the older pistols. It was most likely in the late pre-war period that ammo manufacturers began to name loads for the 38 acp as 38 acp and loads for the 1911s as 38 Super. It became more common to do so.

Note in the pics that all the Winchester ammo boxes are from the 1980s and more recently. They have different names and ways to call the round from 38 Automatic through till 38 Super +P, but that they all have the same product code, X38ASHP.

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Last edited by tipoc; July 16, 2018 at 02:30 PM.
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Old July 16, 2018, 02:32 PM   #90
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BTW, when I said,

Quote:

"Been around since 1897 and they still make guns for it. Ain't going away."
I'm speaking of the 38acp/38 Super round.

tipoc
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Old July 16, 2018, 03:31 PM   #91
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Except, as best as I can tell, no one has manufactured .38 ACP ammo since the 1960s
While sizing 300+ .38 Super cases, I came across one Winchester case marked .38 Auto, and a Midway case marked the same; the latter couldn't be more than a ten years old?
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