.45 ACP sights - Page 3

zeke · January 8, 2023, 02:25 PM

I don't either, but am just guessing from his description what is being referred to.

"I magnified it and I get the impression that the front lateral edges may be locked in place by what look like small metal tabs that are a part of the frame"

cdoc42 · January 8, 2023, 05:18 PM

KIMBER TLE II .45 ACP TEST
All primed with CCI Large Pistol Primer

Target: 6.5” green circle with 2” white center
Sight picture: Top of front sight even with top of rear sights

Handloads: at 15 yards
1) Precision Delta 230gr RN
Clays 4.0gr 1.250” OAL
Aiming point: target center
3 shots Group 0.424” 4.0” high 2.25” left

2) Precision Delta 20gr RN
Bullseye 5.o gr 1.260” OAL
Aiming point: target center
3 shots group 2.0” 3.25” High 3.0” left

3) Evergreen 230gr HP
Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.260”
Aiming point: 6-o’clock
3 shots group 0.799” 3.25” high 3.75” left

4) Evergreen 230gr HP
Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.250”
Aiming point 6 o’clock
3 shots group 0.799” 1.0” high 2.25” left

5) Everygreen 230gr HP
Bulleye 5.0gr OAL 1.250”
Aiming point 6 o’clock
3 shots group 0.674” 3.25” high 3.5” left

Handloads at 7 yards
1) Precision Delta 230gr RN
Clays 4.0gr OAL 1.250”
(Same load as #1 at 15 yards)
Aiming point 6 o’clock
4 shots group 1.799” 0.75” to 2.25” high 0.75” to 1.25” left

2) Evergreen 230gr HP
Clays 4.0 gr OAL 1.250”
Aiming point 6 o’clock
4 shots group 1.049” 1.75” high 1.0” left

3) Evergreen 230gr HP
Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.230”
Aiming point Target center
2 shots group 0.3615” 0.75” high 4/16” left

4) Evergreen 230gr HP
Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.260”
Aiming point Target center
2 shots group 0.674” 7/16” high 9/16” left

MY ANALYSIS:

This procedure was done because I thought the pistol was shooting to the left. The entire series was from a bench rest position with the same sight picture that might explain all groups being high.

At 15 yards the range of groups landing left was 2.25” to 3.75”. At 7 yards the range was 4/16” to 9/16” to the left.

Following this series, I shot 6 rounds off-hand at hanging bowling pins at 15 yards, using the same sight picture but holding to the left side of the pin (my right) and I hit 4 out of 6.

Following that, using a bench rest, I shot my 4-power scoped .223 Thompson Contender using a 50gr SP at 6 balloons blown to about 3-3.5” in diameter at 100 yards using 8 cartridges, suggesting fatigue did not play a role with the .45 ACP.

**JohnKSa** · January 8, 2023, 08:14 PM

Based on that, I would say you're 3" left at 15 yards.

Kimber says the sight radius (distance from the back of the rear sight to the back of the front sight) is 6.8" here. I'm assuming your sights are factory so that would apply.

That works out to 0.038" or 0.96mm of sight adjustment. For a rear sight, you move it in the direction that the point of impact should move so you would want to move the rear sight 1mm to the right.

ALWAYS mark the sight position precisely before you start to move it so you know exactly how far it has been moved when it's all over with. You can make a very small mark with a scribe in the dovetail, or try to mark it with a pencil. The key is that you need to know where you started so you know where you ended up in relation to the initial setting.

It is possible to move a sight with a hammer and a brass punch, but it's easy to mess things up with this process. Even just controlling the slide during the process comes with some risk as you can cause marks and even functional damage to the slide by clamping it in a vice improperly.

With the sight adjustment distance and the slide marked carefully, you can take it to a good gunsmith who knows how to make sight adjustments and they should be able to get it adjusted properly.

Or you can try it yourself. Here's a handy tool that makes the process a bit less error prone than the typical hammer/punch approach.

https://www.wyomingsightdrifter.com/

If the sight is sticky or tight in the dovetail it may remain in place for quite a bit of pushing force or tapping and then suddenly move. Just be patient and don't get frustrated.

Of course, remove or at least loosen any screws holding the sight in place before starting.

**44 AMP** · January 8, 2023, 09:38 PM

Might also be a good idea to give it a shot of penetrating oil (and some time to work) before trying to move the sight.

Also, I think a call to Kimber to be SURE they didn't use any kind of loctite (or what it was, if they did) couldn't hurt.

101combatvet · January 9, 2023, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdoc42

KIMBER TLE II .45 ACP TEST
All primed with CCI Large Pistol Primer

Target: 6.5” green circle with 2” white center
Sight picture: Top of front sight even with top of rear sights

Handloads: at 15 yards
1) Precision Delta 230gr RN
Clays 4.0gr 1.250” OAL
Aiming point: target center
3 shots Group 0.424” 4.0” high 2.25” left

2) Precision Delta 20gr RN
Bullseye 5.o gr 1.260” OAL
Aiming point: target center
3 shots group 2.0” 3.25” High 3.0” left

3) Evergreen 230gr HP
Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.260”
Aiming point: 6-o’clock
3 shots group 0.799” 3.25” high 3.75” left

4) Evergreen 230gr HP
Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.250”
Aiming point 6 o’clock
3 shots group 0.799” 1.0” high 2.25” left

5) Everygreen 230gr HP
Bulleye 5.0gr OAL 1.250”
Aiming point 6 o’clock
3 shots group 0.674” 3.25” high 3.5” left

Handloads at 7 yards
1) Precision Delta 230gr RN
Clays 4.0gr OAL 1.250”
(Same load as #1 at 15 yards)
Aiming point 6 o’clock
4 shots group 1.799” 0.75” to 2.25” high 0.75” to 1.25” left

2) Evergreen 230gr HP
Clays 4.0 gr OAL 1.250”
Aiming point 6 o’clock
4 shots group 1.049” 1.75” high 1.0” left

3) Evergreen 230gr HP
Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.230”
Aiming point Target center
2 shots group 0.3615” 0.75” high 4/16” left

4) Evergreen 230gr HP
Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.260”
Aiming point Target center
2 shots group 0.674” 7/16” high 9/16” left

MY ANALYSIS:

This procedure was done because I thought the pistol was shooting to the left. The entire series was from a bench rest position with the same sight picture that might explain all groups being high.

At 15 yards the range of groups landing left was 2.25” to 3.75”. At 7 yards the range was 4/16” to 9/16” to the left.

Following this series, I shot 6 rounds off-hand at hanging bowling pins at 15 yards, using the same sight picture but holding to the left side of the pin (my right) and I hit 4 out of 6.

Following that, using a bench rest, I shot my 4-power scoped .223 Thompson Contender using a 50gr SP at 6 balloons blown to about 3-3.5” in diameter at 100 yards using 8 cartridges, suggesting fatigue did not play a role with the .45 ACP.

Well, I talk to Kimber about doing the work based on your test results. They have a one year warranty period.

stinkeypete · January 9, 2023, 11:47 PM

Is Kimber going to cover the cost of shipping?
If I were in your shoes, I would mark the present location of the sight, call the gunsmith and say "hey, I need a new kimber 1911 rear sight drifted 1 mm to the right. When is a good time for me to stop over? It's a 5 minute job. How does $20 and a six pack sound?"

If it was me, I would drift the sight with a square punch carefully. I mean, it's a battle pistol designed in 1911, not a swiss watch. Then you know how to control that aspect of your pistol.

cdoc42 · January 10, 2023, 07:07 AM

101combatvet, the pistol is past the one-year period.

I'm going to discuss this with a gunsmith in my area before I tackle this myself, just based on comments that I posted above from another forum where they said the sight is really hard to move.

101combatvet · January 10, 2023, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdoc42

101combatvet, the pistol is past the one-year period.

I'm going to discuss this with a gunsmith in my area before I tackle this myself, just based on comments that I posted above from another forum where they said the sight is really hard to move.

Good idea.

**44 AMP** · January 10, 2023, 09:35 PM

Quote:

I mean, it's a battle pistol designed in 1911, not a swiss watch.

No, its a modern version of the 1911 design with some CHANGES.....

Take it to the gunsmith and tell him what you want done. (witness marks on the sight and slide (and a picture of them for reference) are a good idea.

IF the gunsmith moves it 2mm, and not the 1mm you request, he's responsible for moving it BACK. If he uses the old school wack it with a hammer method, he might have to move it back and forth a few times to get it where you want it. Depends on how skilled he is with his wacker.

cdoc42 · January 11, 2023, 08:46 AM

I'm going to try to get to the gunsmith today. I'll report what I find.

Addendum: Closed until Saturday, plan delayed

Lavan · January 13, 2023, 08:41 AM

Using a cinder block (2 openings) and wrapping the slide in a protective towel and then using a C clamp to secure the whole setup and several WHACKS with a heavy ,bead breaker hammer, I got my series 70 govt ..exactly.. right.
For MY eyes and MY hold.
The steel pusher rod made a few white tiny marks on the sight that covered nicely with less than a drop of cold blue.

Your results may differ.

cdoc42 · January 14, 2023, 01:35 PM

I took it to the gunshop 25 miles away where the gunsmith works. He was not present, but I left the pistol, target assessment (done above), and recommendation received herein for movement of 1.0mm to the right. I'll report back when I hear from him.

Nathan · January 15, 2023, 10:14 AM

This might help.

LINK Was $59……seems to bounce around. $75 today.

Kevin Rohrer · January 15, 2023, 07:12 PM

I suggest the OP get someone who knows 1911s to shoot it to see if he can duplicate the problem. I had this problem for awhile until I learned the proper way to hold it and pull the trigger.

cdoc42 · January 15, 2023, 07:33 PM

Kevin, I appreciate your post and suggestion but recognize that I have previously stated that I have examined several methods of holding that do not achieve the desired results.
What I noted during these exercises is how less than comfortable are the methods alternate to my particular approach. I have a 1911-.380 Auto, a Ruger LC9 and a Walther 9mm (the model does not come to mind as I type this), and my holding method does not create the same disappointment. The same true with revolvers ranging from .22 to .454 Casull.
Did you review the series of handloads and results that I posted above? 5 different handloads from 15 yards all averaged 3 inches to the left; 4 loads from 7 yards were all to the left, but less than 3".

**44 AMP** · January 15, 2023, 09:20 PM

Not meaning to be sarcastic, but have you considered the possibility that the gun might be slightly "bent"???

This is not as disastrous as it might seem, if the gun is consistent and accurate, the sights can be moved so it still "shoots straight".

And, "bent" could be actually bent or might be something bored (or assembled) just enough out of line with the centerline (and sights) to land everything to the left.

Get the sight moved, and please let us know the results. I'm curious to see if moving the sight the calculated amount moves your POI the needed amount. IT should, but the real world doesn't always behave the way calculations say it should.

Good Luck!

cdoc42 · January 18, 2023, 06:34 AM

It's at the gunsmith now -5th day - so I'll check status on Friday.

cdoc42 · January 18, 2023, 05:52 PM

Just got back. He moved the sight and I had included the calculation I received here in FL. He fired 6 rounds at 21 feet after the adjustment and all are in the center of the target.
Now I have to shoot it to confirm. I have a Crimson Trace red laser on the pistol and before I dropped it off the laser hit the wall to the left of center and it was right over the left rear sight dot. It is now in the center of the rear sight, right above the front sight.

Total cost: $37.10. No special charge for the use of his indoor range and no charge for the ammo used (unless it's buried in the $37.10, but still, that's a lot different than the other local gun shop proposed).

**JohnKSa** · January 18, 2023, 11:39 PM

That all sounds good, and the price isn't bad either.

bamaranger · January 18, 2023, 11:56 PM

Happy to hear crisis resolved. Plus, you got a gun back from a 'smith in 5 days????????

cdoc42 · January 19, 2023, 07:58 AM

^^Yes, Bamaranger, 5 days. It was a 50-mile round trip, but worth it. There is another gunshop in the area run by a gunsmith and his wife and prices and deals are attractive enough that you need to stand in line for up to an hour before they get to you. I had a Winchester 101 20-GA shotgun that got a bath when a dehumidifier fluid spilled in the safe and completely corroded the gun with a white precipitate such that it wouldn't open. I had to wait 6 months before this guy returned it and even then the auto-eject wouldn't work on one side. Fortunately, I was able to disassemble it and fix it myself.

January 8, 2023, 08:14 PM	#53
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,986	Based on that, I would say you're 3" left at 15 yards. Kimber says the sight radius (distance from the back of the rear sight to the back of the front sight) is 6.8" here. I'm assuming your sights are factory so that would apply. That works out to 0.038" or 0.96mm of sight adjustment. For a rear sight, you move it in the direction that the point of impact should move so you would want to move the rear sight 1mm to the right. ALWAYS mark the sight position precisely before you start to move it so you know exactly how far it has been moved when it's all over with. You can make a very small mark with a scribe in the dovetail, or try to mark it with a pencil. The key is that you need to know where you started so you know where you ended up in relation to the initial setting. It is possible to move a sight with a hammer and a brass punch, but it's easy to mess things up with this process. Even just controlling the slide during the process comes with some risk as you can cause marks and even functional damage to the slide by clamping it in a vice improperly. With the sight adjustment distance and the slide marked carefully, you can take it to a good gunsmith who knows how to make sight adjustments and they should be able to get it adjusted properly. Or you can try it yourself. Here's a handy tool that makes the process a bit less error prone than the typical hammer/punch approach. https://www.wyomingsightdrifter.com/ If the sight is sticky or tight in the dovetail it may remain in place for quite a bit of pushing force or tapping and then suddenly move. Just be patient and don't get frustrated. Of course, remove or at least loosen any screws holding the sight in place before starting. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

January 8, 2023, 09:38 PM	#54
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Might also be a good idea to give it a shot of penetrating oil (and some time to work) before trying to move the sight. Also, I think a call to Kimber to be SURE they didn't use any kind of loctite (or what it was, if they did) couldn't hurt. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 9, 2023, 11:47 PM	#56
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	Is Kimber going to cover the cost of shipping? If I were in your shoes, I would mark the present location of the sight, call the gunsmith and say "hey, I need a new kimber 1911 rear sight drifted 1 mm to the right. When is a good time for me to stop over? It's a 5 minute job. How does $20 and a six pack sound?" If it was me, I would drift the sight with a square punch carefully. I mean, it's a battle pistol designed in 1911, not a swiss watch. Then you know how to control that aspect of your pistol. __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

January 11, 2023, 08:46 AM	#60
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	I'm going to try to get to the gunsmith today. I'll report what I find. Addendum: Closed until Saturday, plan delayed Last edited by cdoc42; January 12, 2023 at 08:47 AM.

January 15, 2023, 07:12 PM	#64
Kevin Rohrer Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2010 Location: Medina, Ohio Posts: 1,049	I suggest the OP get someone who knows 1911s to shoot it to see if he can duplicate the problem. I had this problem for awhile until I learned the proper way to hold it and pull the trigger. __________________ Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, ARTCA, and American Legion. Caveat Emptor: Cavery Grips/AmericanGripz/Prestige Grips/Stealth Grips from Clayton, NC. He is a scammer

January 8, 2023, 02:25 PM	#51
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	I don't either, but am just guessing from his description what is being referred to. "I magnified it and I get the impression that the front lateral edges may be locked in place by what look like small metal tabs that are a part of the frame"

January 8, 2023, 05:18 PM	#52
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	KIMBER TLE II .45 ACP TEST All primed with CCI Large Pistol Primer Target: 6.5” green circle with 2” white center Sight picture: Top of front sight even with top of rear sights Handloads: at 15 yards 1) Precision Delta 230gr RN Clays 4.0gr 1.250” OAL Aiming point: target center 3 shots Group 0.424” 4.0” high 2.25” left 2) Precision Delta 20gr RN Bullseye 5.o gr 1.260” OAL Aiming point: target center 3 shots group 2.0” 3.25” High 3.0” left 3) Evergreen 230gr HP Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.260” Aiming point: 6-o’clock 3 shots group 0.799” 3.25” high 3.75” left 4) Evergreen 230gr HP Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.250” Aiming point 6 o’clock 3 shots group 0.799” 1.0” high 2.25” left 5) Everygreen 230gr HP Bulleye 5.0gr OAL 1.250” Aiming point 6 o’clock 3 shots group 0.674” 3.25” high 3.5” left Handloads at 7 yards 1) Precision Delta 230gr RN Clays 4.0gr OAL 1.250” (Same load as #1 at 15 yards) Aiming point 6 o’clock 4 shots group 1.799” 0.75” to 2.25” high 0.75” to 1.25” left 2) Evergreen 230gr HP Clays 4.0 gr OAL 1.250” Aiming point 6 o’clock 4 shots group 1.049” 1.75” high 1.0” left 3) Evergreen 230gr HP Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.230” Aiming point Target center 2 shots group 0.3615” 0.75” high 4/16” left 4) Evergreen 230gr HP Bullseye 5.0gr OAL 1.260” Aiming point Target center 2 shots group 0.674” 7/16” high 9/16” left MY ANALYSIS: This procedure was done because I thought the pistol was shooting to the left. The entire series was from a bench rest position with the same sight picture that might explain all groups being high. At 15 yards the range of groups landing left was 2.25” to 3.75”. At 7 yards the range was 4/16” to 9/16” to the left. Following this series, I shot 6 rounds off-hand at hanging bowling pins at 15 yards, using the same sight picture but holding to the left side of the pin (my right) and I hit 4 out of 6. Following that, using a bench rest, I shot my 4-power scoped .223 Thompson Contender using a 50gr SP at 6 balloons blown to about 3-3.5” in diameter at 100 yards using 8 cartridges, suggesting fatigue did not play a role with the .45 ACP.

January 10, 2023, 07:07 AM	#57
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	101combatvet, the pistol is past the one-year period. I'm going to discuss this with a gunsmith in my area before I tackle this myself, just based on comments that I posted above from another forum where they said the sight is really hard to move.

January 13, 2023, 08:41 AM	#61
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Using a cinder block (2 openings) and wrapping the slide in a protective towel and then using a C clamp to secure the whole setup and several WHACKS with a heavy ,bead breaker hammer, I got my series 70 govt ..exactly.. right. For MY eyes and MY hold. The steel pusher rod made a few white tiny marks on the sight that covered nicely with less than a drop of cold blue. Your results may differ.

January 14, 2023, 01:35 PM	#62
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	I took it to the gunshop 25 miles away where the gunsmith works. He was not present, but I left the pistol, target assessment (done above), and recommendation received herein for movement of 1.0mm to the right. I'll report back when I hear from him.

January 15, 2023, 10:14 AM	#63
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	This might help. LINK Was $59……seems to bounce around. $75 today.

January 15, 2023, 07:33 PM	#65
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	Kevin, I appreciate your post and suggestion but recognize that I have previously stated that I have examined several methods of holding that do not achieve the desired results. What I noted during these exercises is how less than comfortable are the methods alternate to my particular approach. I have a 1911-.380 Auto, a Ruger LC9 and a Walther 9mm (the model does not come to mind as I type this), and my holding method does not create the same disappointment. The same true with revolvers ranging from .22 to .454 Casull. Did you review the series of handloads and results that I posted above? 5 different handloads from 15 yards all averaged 3 inches to the left; 4 loads from 7 yards were all to the left, but less than 3".

January 15, 2023, 09:20 PM	#66
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Not meaning to be sarcastic, but have you considered the possibility that the gun might be slightly "bent"??? This is not as disastrous as it might seem, if the gun is consistent and accurate, the sights can be moved so it still "shoots straight". And, "bent" could be actually bent or might be something bored (or assembled) just enough out of line with the centerline (and sights) to land everything to the left. Get the sight moved, and please let us know the results. I'm curious to see if moving the sight the calculated amount moves your POI the needed amount. IT should, but the real world doesn't always behave the way calculations say it should. Good Luck! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 18, 2023, 06:34 AM	#67
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	It's at the gunsmith now -5th day - so I'll check status on Friday.

January 18, 2023, 05:52 PM	#68
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	Just got back. He moved the sight and I had included the calculation I received here in FL. He fired 6 rounds at 21 feet after the adjustment and all are in the center of the target. Now I have to shoot it to confirm. I have a Crimson Trace red laser on the pistol and before I dropped it off the laser hit the wall to the left of center and it was right over the left rear sight dot. It is now in the center of the rear sight, right above the front sight. Total cost: $37.10. No special charge for the use of his indoor range and no charge for the ammo used (unless it's buried in the $37.10, but still, that's a lot different than the other local gun shop proposed).

January 18, 2023, 11:39 PM	#69
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,986	That all sounds good, and the price isn't bad either. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

January 18, 2023, 11:56 PM	#70
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	glad to hear it Happy to hear crisis resolved. Plus, you got a gun back from a 'smith in 5 days????????

January 19, 2023, 07:58 AM	#71
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	^^Yes, Bamaranger, 5 days. It was a 50-mile round trip, but worth it. There is another gunshop in the area run by a gunsmith and his wife and prices and deals are attractive enough that you need to stand in line for up to an hour before they get to you. I had a Winchester 101 20-GA shotgun that got a bath when a dehumidifier fluid spilled in the safe and completely corroded the gun with a white precipitate such that it wouldn't open. I had to wait 6 months before this guy returned it and even then the auto-eject wouldn't work on one side. Fortunately, I was able to disassemble it and fix it myself.