.45 ACP sights

[cdoc42]

I have a Kimber Stainless TLE II in .45 ACP that, no matter how I hold it, shoots 3 inches to the left with 2 different RN and one HP bullets. The rear sight is not user adjustable. I took it to a local gun shop and was advised special tools are required. The shop can do it, but I will have to pay for the service (o.k.) as well as for the cartridges and use of their indoor range that THEY will use to achieve this goal (not o.k.).

I have emailed Kimber support but I thought I'd throw this on TFL to see what options my fellow shooters might have to offer.

[rock185]

I don't know. I've adjusted windage on many fixed sight pistols using sight pushers, I've accumulated 4 at last count, and/or various drifts of nylon, aluminum, brass, etc.

I do know that after any adjustment you will personally need to shoot your gun to ensure POI is where you want it. NOT where some gun shop employee says it is for them...

[L. Boscoe]

if the rear sight is in a dovetail, you can get a brass punch and drive it the
way you want. Check to be sure it doesn't have a set screw in it first. I do
this in a vise, but if you have a good stable space, a table will do. Others
may have better ideas, stay tuned. I have used "sight pushers" in the past
and found them less than ideal, and expensive.

[44 AMP]

A few questions, and forgive me if they are obvious...

New gun? Under warranty??

3 inches to the left with 2 different RN and one HP bullets.

you said "bullets" not ammo. Do you mean loaded factory ammo? or your handloads with those bullets??

Does the gun consistently shoot left with everything or just those 3 particular bullets? Have you tried other loads or just those three??

Has anyone else shot it, and what are their results, same as yours?? Different??

I looked a bit but could not find a picture of that model gun from the top, showing the top of the rear sight, only the sides. The sight is dovetailed into the slide.

Normally dovetailed sights are retained in place by the friction of a tight fit in the dovetail slot. Sometimes (rarely) they may also be staked in place, or might use a set screw to provide tension, but this isn't usual.

If the sight is just dovetailed in place, then the "special tools" needed to move it are a proper punch, a hammer and a functional brain. That being said, there are special tools, such as a sight pusher and even a jig to hold the slide that can be used, and should be used if they have them to minimize the possibility of damaging the finish, or the sight.

As far as the shop is concerned, you are asking them to perform an "accuracy" service, not a functional repair, one which will require trial and error test firing, possibly multiple times. They have every right to expect to be paid for their work, and the materials used during testing. Charging you separately for the range time they will need to use to do the work you want done seems weird, usually that kind of charge (if even done) will simply be covered under "shop expenses" as will the ammo the shoot during testing.

I would say, first, document the issue, then call Kimber. Document so you can tell them "shot 3" left with Winchester, Remington and Speer XXX ammo (what ever FACTORY loads you used). If you handloads are the issue, the factory is going to tell you your handloads are the issue and they don't fix that.

Shoot some factory stuff, document what it was and what it did, then call Kimber and explain the issue. DON'T take the gun to a local shop if it is under warranty (other than to have them ship and receive it if needed). Let Kimber figure out the exact cause, and fix it. It MIGHT NOT be just the sights.

Good Luck and let us know how it goes.

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

I have a Kimber Stainless TLE II in .45 ACP that, no matter how I hold it, shoots 3 inches to the left with 2 different RN and one HP bullets.

Just to clarify the magnitude of the issue: at what range? Three inches off at 7 feet is quite a bit different than three inches at 50 yards.

[Jim Watson]

Three inches at what range? And what is your sight radius? Got to do trigonometry.

[Aguila Blanca]

I use a sight pusher from Brownells that's specifically made for 1911s, but before recommending that I would also like to see your answers to the questions others have asked:

• What distance?
• Have other people shot the gun? If so, do they get the same result?
• Factory ammo, or reloads?

[cdoc42]

I'm sorry for the absence of the necessary information.

The barrel length is 5 inches. It still shoots less to the left at 7 and 15 yards (offhand) but I've never measured it.

I've never fired a factory round; always reloads. I haven't purchased a factory round in any caliber in 45 years. I've used Ranier 230gr RN (now out of business), Precision Delta 230gr plated (today), and Everglades 230gr HP.

As far as the gun shop that I mentioned goes, note I said (0.k.) paying for the service, but, as rock185 said, I felt that I should be the shooter when they make the adjustments, using MY reloads, and as a pretty loyal repeat customer with Cabelas 8 miles away I thought paying a range fee was over the top.

Benchrested today with Precision Delta 230gr RN at 25 yards, 4-inches to the left. (I just measured it) I was testing new loads with Bullseye 5gr and comparing it to Clays 4.0gr used in the past. I had to aim at the target's left side (my right) in order to impact the circled center area on a 8.5 x 11.5 sheet of paper.

No one else has ever fired this pistol. I'm not sure if this matters but this also happened with a fixed-sight 9mm Glock which I sold. It has not happened with 9mm Remington and Walther, .380 Beretta and Browning 1911, 2-.44 Mags, 1-454 Casull, one .45 Colt, 4-.22 revolvers/pistols, and a .223 Thompson. It may still be me, but I have been through a whole lot of hand changes that still seem to point to the need for rear sight adjustment.

Regarding fixing it myself, I read or was told that Kimber-fixed sights, even though they look dovetailed, can't be adjusted without a special tool. That surely would violate any warranty is my guess. Regarding warranty, I'm not taking the position that it is a failure on Kimber's part, just that I need the adjustment.

My other question to Kimber was can I have them replace the rear sight with an adjustable one? I know the higher-end cost models come that way, but whether my model can be converted is another issue.

[Nathan]

OP?

[RickB]

I think the Kimber IIs have the rear sight driven into the dovetail with a press, as removing the rear sight allows tampering with the firing pin block, and they wouldn't want that!

[44 AMP]

Thank you for the additional information. It does help.

OK, I DO understand your position, I also haven't bought any factory ammo in decades. HOWEVER, if I needed to make a warranty claim, it would have to be something that malfunctioned with factory ammo, as generally warranties specifically exclude anything that happens with reloaded ammo, and for valid reason.

SO, I also get it you aren't claiming anything Kimber did was wrong or defective, (which, actually we don't know with certainty, yet) so what you want is essentially a "custom adjustment" which would not be warranty covered work.

This is the main reason for having someone(s) else shoot the gun. TO be able to eliminate you being the cause, or not.

ITs more than just the way you hold the gun, its also the way you look through the sights. Even when trying to do exactly the same thing the same way, no two people do it exactly the same. I've seen this numerous times. Sometimes the differences between shooters is enough to clearly show, sometimes not, but I believe it is always there.

My father used what he said was a center hold and he would hit the center of the target. Shooting his pistols, with his sight settings I had to use a 6 o'clock hold to hit the center of the target at the same distance.

Another example was a friend and I were shooting scoped bolt actions at 100yds, and we would trade rifles. Both of us had POI exactly off POA with each other's rifles.

SO, the point of having someone else shoot the gun is to see what it does in their hands, the way they look through the sights, and how it differs from the results you get, if it does.

If everyone gets the same results, the thing that needs adjusting is the gun. IF some people get good results and you don't, the issue is the gun AND you.

Might make the difference between just a sight adjustment and chasing down other possible causes, such as a "crookedly" installed barrel, for example.

I felt that I should be the shooter when they make the adjustments, using MY reloads,

I completely understand this, as well. It is the most efficient way to do it. However, while this was the kind of thing often done in the past, today it may not be allowed by the shop's insurance. Just as today, its a rare auto shop that lets you into the garage area to watch the mechanic work on your car. Their insurance won't let them do that.

There is a way around this, but its cumbersome (and a PITA) due to current laws. Still, it can be done. Have them adjust the sight, then return the gun to you. Then YOU take it out and test it with your ammo, and if its still off, return the gun to them for another sight adjustment. If they aren't test firing it, (you are, at your range) then they can't charge you for range time or ammo cost. To avoid the crap about having to pass a background check to get your own property back (and its cost) I think you could just take the shop the slide and have them move the sight on it. That way, there's no "gun" to be checked in and out of their logs and no background check required.

This won't work if the problem is more than just the sight being off so the gun is shooting left, but if that's all it is, just taking in the slide and getting it worked on would seem a superior method over having to meet all the legal requirements for a firearm transfer. Just a thought....

Having the maker replace the "fixed" (drift adjustable) rear sight with an adjustable sight would probably be the best option, if possible.

Whenever possible, I always choose an adjustable sight gun over others, even if I never use the adjustment, I like having the option.
Good luck and please let us know how it goes.

[Nathan]

Dillon has your answer!

DILLON



So, between front, rear sights and barrel fitting you are 0.033”. This is a lot. I find a good eyeball can see sights 0.005” off center in your slide. I can be slightly more precise with the depth measuring part of my calipers.

@anybody…FR Sight: Does Kimber pin these? I would guess not. The Rear sight will need the set screws loosened and re locktited.

Shooting is normally required to get it perfect. Shooting by the owner…that is. Can they get it dead nuts centered in the slide and then you shoot it at their range and bring the target back?

[cdoc42]

Nathan, thanks! I can take that info to the gun shop and see what happens. It makes a world of sense.

Coincidentally, I just received a nice response from Kimber:

"Thank you for reaching out to Kimber Customer Service. You can call us at 888-243-4522 to see about getting an RMA setup. Please have your serial number with you when you call. The cost should be the price of the adjustable rear sight (regular) $59.95, $120 to mill out the rear of your slide for the adjustable sight to be installed, $75 to refinish the slide with the polished flats, a $35 instillation fee, and $80 round trip shipping totaling to $369.95. If you want an adjustable night sight, that will cost more. We prefer for the firearm to come in with the original grips.

I am curious, has anyone else shot the firearm and experienced the same issue? It might be worth having someone else try it out before calling us to have this setup. If you have any other questions, call us at the number below."

I answered him with thanks but the cost of the adjustable sight is about 1/3 of the total price that I paid for the gun, and at this point in time of my life I can just spend more time with one of the other guns I have available.

Failing any success at the local shop, I can just hold to the right at the bowling pins I have to kill.

[44 AMP]

There is an alternate approach though it is time consuming and costly it does give you a lot more shooting practice, and that is "adjusting" the ammunition.

What I mean is trying every combination of ammo you can to see if there is one that shoots to the sights, as they are.

Since your gun has a sight that can be moved, you might not want to go this route.

Most guns are very, very similar but there are always some that seem to be "laws unto themselves" the way they behave with different ammo and loads.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by RickB

I think the Kimber IIs have the rear sight driven into the dovetail with a press, as removing the rear sight allows tampering with the firing pin block, and they wouldn't want that!

RickB is correct. Kimbers with "II" in the model name have the firing pin block, and the plunger in the slide is retained by the rear sight. That doesn't mean you can't put the slide into a sight pusher and give the sight a nudge.

[bamaranger]

I've got more than one firearm with the rear sight well off center, adjusted by me, with punch and hammer, or with a pusher if a suitable one is available. I've looked at pics of the TLE II and it appears to have a typical dovetail rear, secured with an allen screw to help anchor it. This ain't the space shuttle and it can be done, I suspect simply, by the owner.

Obtain a small hammer, a brass headed one would be ideal.....it shouldn't mar (as much hopefully) if you miss the punch. Determine the correct size allen key to remove the allen screw. I usually make some index marks with a pencil in either side of the dovetail slot flush against the ends of the sight. Obtain a brass punch no wider than the dovetail

Dismount the slide, either secure it in a padded vise, or get a second set of hands to help hold the thing on a sturdy bench, preferably on a non marring block, a small length of 2x4 can work. Remove the allen screw, don't loose it. Place the slide on the block, the sight and dovetail oriented vertically, with the left side up. Beginning gently, place the punch against the end of the sight, in the dovetail, and attempt to drift it to the right. Check the penciled in index marks to see it it moves. The sight may well move easily with the allen screw removed. If no results, place back on block and tap a bit harder and check again. Repeat process, increasing impact intensity, until you get movement.

I cannot say if there is .033" worth of travel in the dovetail on the right side of said Kimber, but it seems to me there ought to be. If you think you've got enough movement according to your index marks, secure the rear sight with the allen screw and shoot with appropriate ammo off of bags at distance you can consistently shoot good groups. Note that your zero ammo should be the load that you intend to shoot henceforth. If you get POA/POI good for you. If not, repeat above process in whatever direction necessary left/right to get on target. It is best to adjust and shoot in the same location and hopefully the OP's range will have a means to do this.

Windage is usually not difficult to correct if the rear sight allows some type of movement, as in a dovetail. It is a royal pain on a fixed sight like on revolver frame, milled into the frame with no easy means to alter.

[cdoc42]

Thanks for the tutorial bamaranger. I'm quite comfortable with giving that a try. That should not be as difficult as free-floating and epoxy-bedding a rifle stock!

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

I have a Kimber Stainless TLE II in .45 ACP that, no matter how I hold it, shoots 3 inches to the left with 2 different RN and one HP bullets. The rear sight is not user adjustable. I took it to a local gun shop and was advised special tools are required. The shop can do it, but I will have to pay for the service (o.k.) as well as for the cartridges and use of their indoor range that THEY will use to achieve this goal (not o.k.).

I have emailed Kimber support but I thought I'd throw this on TFL to see what options my fellow shooters might have to offer.

Are you shooting with your dominant eye? How many rounds were fired? What distance to the target? Have you gotten the same results while bench-resting the pistol? Have others fired your pistol with the same results?

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

No one else has ever fired this pistol. I'm not sure if this matters but this also happened with a fixed-sight 9mm Glock which I sold. It has not happened with 9mm Remington and Walther, .380 Beretta and Browning 1911, 2-.44 Mags, 1-454 Casull, one .45 Colt, 4-.22 revolvers/pistols, and a .223 Thompson. It may still be me, but I have been through a whole lot of hand changes that still seem to point to the need for rear sight adjustment.

What? It matters a lot. It isn't the pistol; it's the shooter.

[Jim Watson]

Right, it is HIS pistol and should therefore shoot where HE looks.

I read of people changing their grip, etc. to suit one odd gun. I don't.

[Nathan]

If you try it on your own, I would get 1/2 of the adjustment roughly in 1 sight and 1/2 from the other if something is not off center already.

Helps reduce the whopperjawed look!

[bamaranger]

It appears the front sight is in a dovetail on the TLE as well, not staked. The front sight may be drifted in the opposite direction (left) and thus half the dx necessary to drift the rear. However, there is no allen screw on the front, and getting it to move in it's dovetail might take A LOT of persuasion . My SIG pusher was specially made to secure the blade and push against the base at the same time to achieve movement. Attacking the front with it's thin lip might be a real challenge, but might be an unavoidable solution if the rear gets to far outboard to suit.

[cdoc42]

bamaranger, I tried to measure both sides of both sights to see if one is off-center but my attempt was not rewarding. I looked very carefully at the rear because of the caveat that it may be connected to the plunger in the slide for the firing pin block. I magnified it and I get the impression that the front lateral edges may be locked in place by what look like small metal tabs that are a part of the frame. In case a screw holds the front sight, I dismantled the gun and found none. So I may just attempt to move the front sight slightly to the left and test it.

[cdoc42]

101combatvet: "Are you shooting with your dominant eye? (Yes)
How many rounds were fired? (14)
What distance to the target? (25 yards)
Have you gotten the same results while bench-resting the pistol? (I was doing this off a benchrest)
Have others fired your pistol with the same results?" (No one has ever fired my pistol)

[44 AMP]

So I may just attempt to move the front sight slightly to the left and test it.

I suggest you do so, ONLY if you are prepared to purchase a replacement and pay for professional installation.

I say this because front sights LOVE to BREAK when you try to move them. Even the proper sight pusher is not a 100% guarantee it won't happen. The proper sight pusher does reduce the risk way down, but there always seem to be those .."hmmm, it shouldn't have done that" moments.

So be prepared, or pay a professional (who is obligated to eat the cost of the sight if THEY break it).