what is enough gun

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 06:27 PM

I just read a factual account, of a Law Enforcment incident, in which an officer took 2 rds of 9mm in the arm and 2 more in the thigh while putting 17 rds of .40 center mass and 5 more in the limbs of a wanted man who was intoxicated on nothing more than alcohal. The BG lived 4 mins after the last rd was fired. This was a shootout around two vehicles and the rounds were fired here and there, not all at once. The ammo used by the LEO was Ranger sxt's and obviously not effective. I want to hear from those 9mm fanboys who say they only need good ammo and shot placement and the 9mm is effective. I beg to differ, if the 40 didnt do it how do you believe a 9mm will? Sorry but I will stick with magnum calibers (357, 41, and 44) out of revolvers that are proven manstoppers. This incident coupled with some personal experience just adds more proof to my theory that the popular auto rounds dont have what I feel is the adaquate power for SD.
Flame away

OldShooter · May 17, 2009, 06:38 PM

I always base my decisions on one anecdotal example if it supports what I want to believe.

Stevie-Ray · May 17, 2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

This incident coupled with some personal experience just adds more proof to my theory that the popular auto rounds dont have what I feel is the adaquate power for SD.

Proof, huh? One incident?

Soon as I gather myself properly, I'll toss all my .45s in the can.

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 06:41 PM

I said in my post, this combined with other factual incidents which I have seen personally. So I am not using one incident, but several.

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 06:42 PM

I dont include the .45acp in this group as I have seen the holes it will produce with the right ammo. I am talking more of the 380, 9mm, and 40

Dragon55 · May 17, 2009, 06:54 PM

.40 Smith & Wesson (S&W)
This cartridge was developed as a joint venture between Winchester and Smith & Wesson in 1989. It was an effort to to create a cartridge with the same power as the 10mm Norma round that the FBI had just started using, but in a shorter case. The shorter cartridge would facilitate accuracy and allow use of a smaller, more comfortable grip frame. The .40 S&W has become the cartridge of choice for many law enforcement agencies in the United States. Typical bullet weight for this cartridge ranges from 135 to 180 grains with an average muzzle energy that approaches 500 ft-lbs.

.357 Magnum
This cartridge was introduced in 1935 by Smith & Wesson for its heavy-frame revolver. Ammunition was developed by Winchester in cooperation with Smith & Wesson. Using a lengthened and strengthened version of the .38 Special case, the .357 Magnum was rapidly accepted by hunters and law enforcement. At the time of its introduction, it was claimed to easily pierce the body panels of automobiles and crack engine blocks. While it has less power than .44 Magnum, it compares favorably to the 10mm Norma and .45 ACP, but with better armor penetration. Today factories offer over fifty different loadings in this caliber. Bullet weights range from 110 to 200 grains with an average muzzle energy exceeding 500 ft-lbs.

I have shot many 200gr jhp's from my full size .40 that easily exceed the 500 ft-lbs. muzzle energy. AND..... I can put 20 neat holes in a 6" circle at 15 yds. in just a few seconds. Obviously that cop was using inferior SD ammo.

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 06:59 PM

I have no experience with Ranger SXT ammo but I have heard from other LEOs that it is their departments issue ammo. I should have stated that some of the rounds passed through the windsheild and side window before hitting center mass, but in my mind thats not a good enough excuse for the poor performance.

cracked91 · May 17, 2009, 07:05 PM

Well, 10mm is the way I plan on going when I get ready to buy a real auto. But I will tell you I doubt there is anything you are going to do with 6 rnds of .357 that can't be done by 17 rounds of .40 S&W.

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 07:07 PM

I am not sure iI agree with that statement because of the fact that the 357 mag has greater penetration abillity which MAY have been an issue.

cracked91 · May 17, 2009, 07:22 PM

someone drunk enough to take 17 rounds of .40 and keep going is not going to feel anything short of being knocked on their back or there CNS being affected. In animal defense, I would say there could be a difference between a few round of .357 and alot of rounds of .40. But if you want penetration go with fmj

DKJBama · May 17, 2009, 07:33 PM

Wrong tool for the job. If you want to shoot somebody through a car door with an autoloader, you get a full-power 10mm or a 357Sig. 9mm +P+ would probably get the job done as well.

Not the mention, the JHPs that a cop is likely to carry are less likely than FMJ to penetrate a steel car door

freakshow10mm · May 17, 2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

I can put 20 neat holes in a 6" circle at 15 yds. in just a few seconds. Obviously that cop was using inferior SD ammo.

Can you do that when someone is trying to kill you?

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

someone drunk enough to take 17 rounds of .40 and keep going is not going to feel anything short of being knocked on their back or there CNS being affected. In animal defense, I would say there could be a difference between a few round of .357 and alot of rounds of .40. But if you want penetration go with fmj

I am thinking this was a combination of the wrong ammo and not enough power. If a SD round wont go through glass with enough power to defeat the BG it is not good enough IMO for SD. I think this is a good case for choosing ammo for all situations not just one.

Kyo · May 17, 2009, 07:42 PM

buick of truth guys. rounds will go through car doors just fine. doesn't really matter which caliber.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
check it out. I actually owned a 1989 Buick Park Avenue Ultra. That thing was a tank! I miss it =(

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Wrong tool for the job. If you want to shoot somebody through a car door with an autoloader, you get a full-power 10mm or a 357Sig. 9mm +P+ would probably get the job done as well.

Not the mention, the JHPs that a cop is likely to carry are less likely than FMJ to penetrate a steel car door

It was not the cars door but the glass that was between the LEO and the BG and even though the automobile has laminated glass it should not defeat your SD round. I am thinking if this was a person stopping a BG from carjacking them it would have stopped the attack. But if it is an attacker bent on hurting them it may not have. I agree with the 10mm or 357 sig probally being better than the 40 or 9mm but I still think the 357 sig is too light in this situation.

Superhouse 15 · May 17, 2009, 07:47 PM

People have been killed with .22 shorts, people have survived full power .357 to the heart (Stacy Lim comes to mind) and 12ga slugs to the head (DeCoatesworth in Philly). Calm down about it. The difference of a few grains of weight, a few foot/pounds of energy, or a couple milimeters of diameter don't matter as much as hitting accurately. I'd rather face an idiot with a .44mag than a skilled shooter with a .22short.

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

buick of truth guys. rounds will go through car doors just fine. doesn't really matter which caliber.

That was FMJ ammo not SD ammo

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

People have been killed with .22 shorts, people have survived full power .357 to the heart (Stacy Lim comes to mind) and 12ga slugs to the head (DeCoatesworth in Philly). Calm down about it. The difference of a few grains of weight, a few foot/pounds of energy, or a couple milimeters of diameter don't matter as much as hitting accurately. I'd rather face an idiot with a .44mag than a skilled shooter with a .22short.

While there is ALOT of truth to this statement, I think the odds are in the favor of certain rounds being more effective than others. And I would rather be the one with the better odds.

PhoenixConflagration · May 17, 2009, 07:50 PM

Sometimes .22s kill people, sometimes .45s don't. There are plenty of recorded incidents of people getting pipes/sticks/railroad spikes through the head and surviving. There's that one guy who's missing literally a third of his cranium and is mostly okay. Then there's that one actress who fell down on the bunny slope and bumped her head. She was fine for hours until she keeled over dead. You can chalk all such thing up to: $#!@ Happens.

mnhntr · May 17, 2009, 07:50 PM

BTW thanks for the honest discussion for those who offered it and not SMUG COMMENTS like the others

Hunley · May 17, 2009, 07:59 PM

I'm reminded of a story my fiance's grandfather told me about a month ago when I showed him my SA GI 1911. He was in the Corp for 20+ years and trained officers how to shoot 1911s. He carried one in Vietnam.

He didn't go into details (nor did I ask him to) about this particular scenario, but he ended up shooting a Vietcong officer that was high on "Beetle Nut". He hit him square in the breastplate, knocking him to the ground... But he got up...

He shot him 3 more times, rapid fire, with all rounds hitting center mass. He was airborne when the third round hit, being knocked back by the force of the 230gr. ball ammo... He got back up.

He emptied the clip, reloaded, and shot three rounds from that clip. He fell, and started to get back up, but fell down in a pool of his own blood...

The point of the story? You can have PERFECT shot placement and be an expert marksman. Everything can be textbook. BUT if someone is not in a normal state of mind (or body), they will be affected differently than a normal person unless you get a CNS/head shot.

DKJBama · May 17, 2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

BTW thanks for the honest discussion for those who offered it and not SMUG COMMENTS like the others

I hope it wasn't my comments you found smug; I certainly didn't mean them that way.

Has anyone done testing on the ballistics of a JHP when it impacts tempered glass or sheetmetal? You would think that would be tested when a cartridge is qualified as a duty round.

raftman · May 17, 2009, 08:13 PM

I'm no expert, but that whole argument seems really silly, and could even be demonstrative of an attitude that's quite dangerous.

One can come up with a bizarre anecdote about how more than a dozen hits from a moderately powerful weapon won't stop a guy, but someone else can come up with instances in which a 250 lb. individual dropped like a fly upon being hit with a .22LR, in fact, I am sure you'll find cases where people have been killed by one shot from an airgun as well. Do these prove that such weapons ARE adequate for self-defense? Extreme examples exist at both sides, but neither are at all good indicators for what is the case the vast majority of the time. This is why 8-year-olds aren't legally allowed to drive cars. You'll find some example somewhere, if you look long and hard enough, of an 8-year-old who can safely drive a car, but the other 99.99% of the time, it's not gonna be the case.

One must understand, that for many people, sheer stopping power (I know that's an iffy term) isn't the only factor that plays a role in their choice of SD weapon. Factors like accuracy, ease of use, conceal-ability, among others also play a role. There are people who probably cannot handle a .44 mag well, or shoot it accurately, or they may have trouble carrying one on account of size/weight and thus carry it less often. In such cases, even though a .44 mag is more powerful than something like .32ACP, in the hands of such a person, it would be a LESS effective self-defense weapon.

Kyo · May 17, 2009, 08:14 PM

altered state of mind changes everything. You can't react to being shot if you mentally can't know you are being shot because you are so drunk/high/adrenaline rushed. If you have no state of mind it is even worse, because nothing registers in your head.
to answer the original question- enough gun has the following
1. something YOU can handle shooting
2. reliability
3. conceal ability
4. comfort
5. whatever else.
accuracy goes hand in hand with reliability in my mind.

MrNiceGuy · May 17, 2009, 08:17 PM

Quote:

I just read a factual account, of a Law Enforcment incident, in which an officer took 2 rds of 9mm in the arm and 2 more in the thigh while putting 17 rds of .40 center mass and 5 more in the limbs of a wanted man who was intoxicated on nothing more than alcohal. The BG lived 4 mins after the last rd was fired. This was a shootout around two vehicles and the rounds were fired here and there, not all at once. The ammo used by the LEO was Ranger sxt's and obviously not effective. I want to hear from those 9mm fanboys who say they only need good ammo and shot placement and the 9mm is effective. I beg to differ, if the 40 didnt do it how do you believe a 9mm will? Sorry but I will stick with magnum calibers (357, 41, and 44) out of revolvers that are proven manstoppers. This incident coupled with some personal experience just adds more proof to my theory that the popular auto rounds dont have what I feel is the adaquate power for SD.
Flame away

you read accounts? NO WAI!!!!
well, based off of your obviously grandiose knowledge, i might as well toss those 9mm and 40 cal bullets.... sounds like i'd be lucky if they penetrated the skin! Maybe it's all a ruse.... the 9mm was invented by gnomes who only wanted to give the illusion of lethality.
Well, thank god nobody's been killed by 9mm... I can rest better knowing tonight that unless someone comes at me with a "magnum" caliber, i'll be a-ok

Hell, that face transplant woman was shot in the face with a 12ga and is STILL alive, not a puny 4 minutes.... that's another account right there... obviously 12ga isnt lethal either.

magnum callibers... not only lethal, but grade A compensation for lack of manhood

how's that for smug?

May 17, 2009, 06:27 PM	#1
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	what is enough gun I just read a factual account, of a Law Enforcment incident, in which an officer took 2 rds of 9mm in the arm and 2 more in the thigh while putting 17 rds of .40 center mass and 5 more in the limbs of a wanted man who was intoxicated on nothing more than alcohal. The BG lived 4 mins after the last rd was fired. This was a shootout around two vehicles and the rounds were fired here and there, not all at once. The ammo used by the LEO was Ranger sxt's and obviously not effective. I want to hear from those 9mm fanboys who say they only need good ammo and shot placement and the 9mm is effective. I beg to differ, if the 40 didnt do it how do you believe a 9mm will? Sorry but I will stick with magnum calibers (357, 41, and 44) out of revolvers that are proven manstoppers. This incident coupled with some personal experience just adds more proof to my theory that the popular auto rounds dont have what I feel is the adaquate power for SD. Flame away

May 17, 2009, 06:54 PM	#6
Dragon55 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2009 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 811	Uhhh..... .40 Smith & Wesson (S&W) This cartridge was developed as a joint venture between Winchester and Smith & Wesson in 1989. It was an effort to to create a cartridge with the same power as the 10mm Norma round that the FBI had just started using, but in a shorter case. The shorter cartridge would facilitate accuracy and allow use of a smaller, more comfortable grip frame. The .40 S&W has become the cartridge of choice for many law enforcement agencies in the United States. Typical bullet weight for this cartridge ranges from 135 to 180 grains with an average muzzle energy that approaches 500 ft-lbs. .357 Magnum This cartridge was introduced in 1935 by Smith & Wesson for its heavy-frame revolver. Ammunition was developed by Winchester in cooperation with Smith & Wesson. Using a lengthened and strengthened version of the .38 Special case, the .357 Magnum was rapidly accepted by hunters and law enforcement. At the time of its introduction, it was claimed to easily pierce the body panels of automobiles and crack engine blocks. While it has less power than .44 Magnum, it compares favorably to the 10mm Norma and .45 ACP, but with better armor penetration. Today factories offer over fifty different loadings in this caliber. Bullet weights range from 110 to 200 grains with an average muzzle energy exceeding 500 ft-lbs. I have shot many 200gr jhp's from my full size .40 that easily exceed the 500 ft-lbs. muzzle energy. AND..... I can put 20 neat holes in a 6" circle at 15 yds. in just a few seconds. Obviously that cop was using inferior SD ammo. __________________ sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W

May 17, 2009, 07:50 PM	#19
PhoenixConflagration Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 517	Sometimes .22s kill people, sometimes .45s don't. There are plenty of recorded incidents of people getting pipes/sticks/railroad spikes through the head and surviving. There's that one guy who's missing literally a third of his cranium and is mostly okay. Then there's that one actress who fell down on the bunny slope and bumped her head. She was fine for hours until she keeled over dead. You can chalk all such thing up to: $#!@ Happens. __________________ *There is nothing quite so dangerous as a pacifist, for they will readily sacrifice others* for their ideals.**

May 17, 2009, 07:59 PM	#21
Hunley Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Location: Statesboro, GA Posts: 241	I'm reminded of a story my fiance's grandfather told me about a month ago when I showed him my SA GI 1911. He was in the Corp for 20+ years and trained officers how to shoot 1911s. He carried one in Vietnam. He didn't go into details (nor did I ask him to) about this particular scenario, but he ended up shooting a Vietcong officer that was high on "Beetle Nut". He hit him square in the breastplate, knocking him to the ground... But he got up... He shot him 3 more times, rapid fire, with all rounds hitting center mass. He was airborne when the third round hit, being knocked back by the force of the 230gr. ball ammo... He got back up. He emptied the clip, reloaded, and shot three rounds from that clip. He fell, and started to get back up, but fell down in a pool of his own blood... The point of the story? You can have PERFECT shot placement and be an expert marksman. Everything can be textbook. BUT if someone is not in a normal state of mind (or body), they will be affected differently than a normal person unless you get a CNS/head shot. __________________ "The best caliber and round for self defense are the ones in the gun closest to you" - My Grandfather

May 17, 2009, 06:38 PM	#2
OldShooter Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2006 Location: Maine Posts: 846	I always base my decisions on one anecdotal example if it supports what I want to believe.

May 17, 2009, 06:41 PM	#4
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	I said in my post, this combined with other factual incidents which I have seen personally. So I am not using one incident, but several.

May 17, 2009, 06:42 PM	#5
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	I dont include the .45acp in this group as I have seen the holes it will produce with the right ammo. I am talking more of the 380, 9mm, and 40

May 17, 2009, 06:59 PM	#7
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	I have no experience with Ranger SXT ammo but I have heard from other LEOs that it is their departments issue ammo. I should have stated that some of the rounds passed through the windsheild and side window before hitting center mass, but in my mind thats not a good enough excuse for the poor performance.

May 17, 2009, 07:05 PM	#8
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	Well, 10mm is the way I plan on going when I get ready to buy a real auto. But I will tell you I doubt there is anything you are going to do with 6 rnds of .357 that can't be done by 17 rounds of .40 S&W.

May 17, 2009, 07:07 PM	#9
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	I am not sure iI agree with that statement because of the fact that the 357 mag has greater penetration abillity which MAY have been an issue.

May 17, 2009, 07:22 PM	#10
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	someone drunk enough to take 17 rounds of .40 and keep going is not going to feel anything short of being knocked on their back or there CNS being affected. In animal defense, I would say there could be a difference between a few round of .357 and alot of rounds of .40. But if you want penetration go with fmj

May 17, 2009, 07:33 PM	#11
DKJBama Member Join Date: March 30, 2009 Location: NW Alabama Posts: 16	Wrong tool for the job. If you want to shoot somebody through a car door with an autoloader, you get a full-power 10mm or a 357Sig. 9mm +P+ would probably get the job done as well. Not the mention, the JHPs that a cop is likely to carry are less likely than FMJ to penetrate a steel car door

May 17, 2009, 07:42 PM	#14
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	buick of truth guys. rounds will go through car doors just fine. doesn't really matter which caliber. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm check it out. I actually owned a 1989 Buick Park Avenue Ultra. That thing was a tank! I miss it =(

May 17, 2009, 07:47 PM	#16
Superhouse 15 Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2007 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 844	People have been killed with .22 shorts, people have survived full power .357 to the heart (Stacy Lim comes to mind) and 12ga slugs to the head (DeCoatesworth in Philly). Calm down about it. The difference of a few grains of weight, a few foot/pounds of energy, or a couple milimeters of diameter don't matter as much as hitting accurately. I'd rather face an idiot with a .44mag than a skilled shooter with a .22short.

May 17, 2009, 08:13 PM	#23
raftman Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,890	I'm no expert, but that whole argument seems really silly, and could even be demonstrative of an attitude that's quite dangerous. One can come up with a bizarre anecdote about how more than a dozen hits from a moderately powerful weapon won't stop a guy, but someone else can come up with instances in which a 250 lb. individual dropped like a fly upon being hit with a .22LR, in fact, I am sure you'll find cases where people have been killed by one shot from an airgun as well. Do these prove that such weapons ARE adequate for self-defense? Extreme examples exist at both sides, but neither are at all good indicators for what is the case the vast majority of the time. This is why 8-year-olds aren't legally allowed to drive cars. You'll find some example somewhere, if you look long and hard enough, of an 8-year-old who can safely drive a car, but the other 99.99% of the time, it's not gonna be the case. One must understand, that for many people, sheer stopping power (I know that's an iffy term) isn't the only factor that plays a role in their choice of SD weapon. Factors like accuracy, ease of use, conceal-ability, among others also play a role. There are people who probably cannot handle a .44 mag well, or shoot it accurately, or they may have trouble carrying one on account of size/weight and thus carry it less often. In such cases, even though a .44 mag is more powerful than something like .32ACP, in the hands of such a person, it would be a LESS effective self-defense weapon.

May 17, 2009, 08:14 PM	#24
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	altered state of mind changes everything. You can't react to being shot if you mentally can't know you are being shot because you are so drunk/high/adrenaline rushed. If you have no state of mind it is even worse, because nothing registers in your head. to answer the original question- enough gun has the following 1. something YOU can handle shooting 2. reliability 3. conceal ability 4. comfort 5. whatever else. accuracy goes hand in hand with reliability in my mind.