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March 15, 2012, 02:52 AM | #1 |
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Definition of straw purchase in Minnesota?
I recently purchased a weapon on gunboker.com for my self to use for target and a more comfortable gun for my wife to use as my 9mm intimidates her a little bit. i went to my local gun range (of which i am a member) and asked if they would do the FFL transfer. No problem i was told. had it shipped and went to pick it up when it arrived. my exact words were "I finally have gotten my wife interested in shooting so I purchased this gun to keep her intrested because she is a little afraid of mine she is going to be so excited". was told by the range that this is a straw purchase and they will not be able to transfer it to me? My wife would meet all the the criteria to be able to purchase herself (i dont even think she has had a speeding ticket in 10 years) I am liscensed and have the right to purchase in this state. I am buying it as much for myself as for her (sick of paying for 9mm ammo to practice shooting). I cant foursee ever passing ownership to her. I would never purchase a weapon for anyone including family. is the range right not to transfer it to me? already paid for to a different company +shipping and they want to send it back?
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March 15, 2012, 03:05 AM | #2 |
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Yes you cant buy a gun for someone else that is illegal, But i think it is a little much but you did say you bought it for your wife to shoot, Huge NoNo it is actually a chargeable offense if someone was anal enough to do that, I Know ATF would that is what they do lol, the shop is going a little over board on legality's i think. Sucks to hear but that company is going by the books they have that right......
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March 15, 2012, 03:08 AM | #3 |
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In the context of United States federal gun laws, a straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not.
Beginning in 1975, ATF officials apparently reached a judgment that a dealer who sells to a legitimate purchaser may nonetheless be subject to prosecution or license revocation if he knows that that individual intends to transfer the firearm to a nonresident or other unqualified purchaser. This position was never published in the Federal Register and is indeed contrary to indications which Bureau officials had given Congress, that such sales were not in violation of existing law. Rather than informing dealers of this distinction, ATF agents set out to produce mass arrests upon these "straw purchase" sale charges, sending out undercover agents to entice dealers into transfers of this type.[citation needed] In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the ultimate possessor. One of the questions on Form 4473 is “I am the buyer of this firearm” and the purchaser must answer honestly yes or no, by checking the appropriate box in ink. However, purchase of a firearm as a bona fide gift for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted.[1] Many gun shops have jointly participated in programs (such as: “Don’t Lie For The Other Guy”) to deter such purchases.[2] |
March 15, 2012, 03:28 AM | #4 |
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Thank you for your replies so far. as i stated this purchase is as much for me (if not more) and i would never transfer ownership. can you not legally purchase a firearm and gift it to sombody, especially a spouse, that would qualify to purchase on their own?
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March 15, 2012, 05:16 AM | #5 | |
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Quote:
If it's a gun you are buying for yourself I see no problem. When you tell the FFL holder you are buying it for someone else to shoot it muddies the water. As far as he's concerned you are saying that you are buying it for someone else to possess and that is a big no-no. There is no need to explain your purchase to the guy doing the transfer. Why you buy the gun is your business as long as it is legal.
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March 15, 2012, 05:28 AM | #6 | ||
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You might want to refer the dealer to the ATF publication Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, 2005 which states on page 165 (emphasis added):
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March 15, 2012, 07:18 AM | #7 |
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At times we are our own worst enemies. Here is the perfect example of that. In simple conversation a statement is made and the proverbial hits the fan and the transfer is denied. An innocent statement in general conversation has created a nightmare.
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March 15, 2012, 07:34 AM | #8 |
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What the OP did is certainly NOT a straw purchase in Minnesota or anywhere else in the US. Many folks will argue that it is, they are wrong. You will even have FFLs argue the point, they are wrong as well. I believe the definition is right on the back of the 4473 even. Buying the firearm as a gift for a person who would otherwise be able to purchase it themselves and legally possess it IS NOT a straw purchase under federal law.
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March 15, 2012, 07:51 AM | #9 |
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I can not get the 4473 to come up on my computer, but I thought there was a small paragraph on the back side of the form in which it stated the purchaser could give the gun as a gift and still remain legal.
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March 15, 2012, 08:10 AM | #10 |
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Since it is your wife, I don't see how they can prosecute you and coerce your wife to testify against you. The firearm purchased is your joint property unless it is auto/sbr/aow so I think the FFL is being anal and pushing the issue if they are taking actions to prevent you from completing the transfer. It can fall under the straw purchase according to the letter of the law, but as they cannot prove that it is no longer your property, I don't see how you are going to be prosecuted.
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March 15, 2012, 10:20 AM | #11 | |
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From the instructions on the back of the 4473:
Quote:
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March 15, 2012, 12:35 PM | #12 |
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Sounds like the FFL isn't fully aware of what does and does not constitute a straw purchase. And if you said exactly what you said in the first post, it definitely isn't even close to a straw purchase since you're saying it'd yours and your wife is simply going to use it.
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March 15, 2012, 12:57 PM | #13 |
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If you are retaining posession and simply letting someone else fire your gun in your presence, then 'straw purchase' has nothing to do with the equation whatsoever, and the FFL needs a refresher on the laws (both FED and MN)...
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March 16, 2012, 09:50 AM | #14 | |
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OP, do a search for previous threads on gifts and straw purchases - this has been discussed many times before. Even if it wasn't for your wife it would be perfectly legal. |
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March 19, 2012, 02:34 AM | #15 |
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I was not referring to a "Gift"
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March 19, 2012, 07:57 AM | #16 |
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Whether it's a formal gift, an informal gift, or simply a gun that both he and his wife will be shooting doesn't matter - the OP did nothing wrong, and the gun store had no reason to delay the transfer, unless they just happened to know for a fact that the wife was a prohibited person.
The straw purchase rules were never meant to prevent someone from buying a gun and making it available to his/her spouse. Simply put, the gun store clerk gooned this one away. |
March 19, 2012, 12:36 PM | #17 | |
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March 19, 2012, 12:53 PM | #18 | |
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Loose lips; sink ships !!
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When it comes to guns, we have to follow the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. Be Safe !!!
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March 19, 2012, 01:50 PM | #19 |
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Thanks for all the info
I got another FFL in my area to do the transfer for me. When I told them the story behind what happened they said that the gun range had no idea what they were doing. They also stated that if I had come into them and said straight out I was buying it as a gift for my wife they would have zero problem with doing the transfer. I will be talking to my ranges owner the next time I am there and informing him of the lack of education his employees have. All of your replies were very helpful and i appreciate you taking the time to help. Best of luck in all of your en devours.
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March 19, 2012, 02:06 PM | #20 |
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Crazy. Sounds like the person at the range was not properly informed
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March 19, 2012, 03:04 PM | #21 |
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FFL is just being stupid.
The gift 'instructions' are right on the back of the 4473. and this would be a gift if you gave her the gun. A 'straw purchase' is lying on question 11 a) on the front of the 4473. Nothing more. It does not involve a prohibited person. Even gifting a gun to a prohibited person is illegal, but would still not be a straw purchase unless they gave you the money for the gun (before or after you purchased it. It is astounding how many folks seem to sign the form without actually READING it (and that includes the instructions). I have a bridge for sale for you all. |
March 19, 2012, 04:39 PM | #22 |
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The shop is being a jerk. You bought it, it is yours. Your wife will shoot it. Nothing illegal.
But, if the shop reports this, there is a possibility the prosecutor is as big a jerk as the shop owner. Right, wrong, legal, illegal doesn't figure into the equation. What ATF and the prosecutor want to do to you is all that matters. Sorry. I have a friend who learned that the hard way. The Feds have hundreds of lawyers and unlimited resources. You might be lucky enough to hire one lawyer, for a while, until you are broke. Bring wife in and have her buy in her own name. Or switch dealers to handle your business. |
March 20, 2012, 11:42 AM | #23 |
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If the husband paid for the gun and the store told him he can't have it because it is for his wife, so his wife does the paperwork, would that not be the definition of a straw purchase?
What would the ATF think if the wife did the paperwork on the gun her husband bought? What would the ATF think if they found out an FFL holder was encouraging their customers to break the law?
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March 20, 2012, 12:06 PM | #24 | |
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Quote:
A straw purchase is fully defined in post 6 and also explained in posts 11 and 21. |
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March 20, 2012, 01:30 PM | #25 |
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It says Brown can buy a gun for Black as a gift and that Brown could do the paperwork because Brown is the person making the purchase. In this case, the husband has already bought and paid for the gun as a gift to his wife. The ATF rule from your post 6 says the husband could lawfully complete the paperwork because he is the purchaser. The question is, does the ATF rule that says the husband could do the paperwork also allow the wife to do the paperwork, since it is a gift to her?
From reading the information from the ATF and the form 4473, I thought the person paying for the gun always has to be the one doing the paperwork.
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