10MM Valor break-in and Sellier & Bellot ammo chronographed

RemoWilliams · June 19, 2018, 11:02 AM

I took my new 10MM Valor to the range. Before I fired it I removed the slide and examined the guide rails on the slide and the frame. Next I reinstalled the slide only to the frame without the spring or barrel and racked it 100 times. I took the slide off, cleaned the rails with a bore cleaning patch, removing all the oil and grey grit, then oiled the rails with M-Pro7 and repeated the process two more times for a total of 300 cycles of slide racking. at this point when I cleaned off all the sliding surfaces the patches were fairly clean. I cleaned the rails again, generously lubed the rails, barrel, and bushing, and went to the range. Took a box of Sellier & Bellot 180 grain bullets, and some reloads. Ran the S&B first just in case, and had no problems. I also wanted a baseline to compare to my reloads using my radar ballistic chronograph, and got some surprising results. Most of the shots fired were around 1100 FPS, but one of the shots was recorded at 2038 FPS, and another was at 1864 FPS. These were shots that were fired in the middle of the batch that were fired, not at the very beginning or the very end. The shots immediately before and after these two shots were in the 1100 FPS range. What I am saying is that I don’t think this was a chronograph issue. There were no problems with the reloads, either with velocity variations or with feeding. The only issues with the pistol were due to operator error. Nothing got tighter with use, the pistol is just great!

David R · June 19, 2018, 11:40 AM

Sound waves from the gun can mess up the crony.

How far was the crony from the gun?

David

RickB · June 19, 2018, 12:12 PM

Quote:

What I am saying is that I don’t think this was a chronograph issue.

But, you're also not saying that one round went twice as fast as most of the others, are you?

Sevens · June 19, 2018, 12:44 PM

I am no chrono expert but I know that I know enough. There is no chance that either of those reported shots were anywhere near or beyond 1,800 fps.

If you believe in any way that they were, you are stunting the growth of your experience with chronographs.

stagpanther · June 19, 2018, 12:53 PM

Are you using labradar? It sometimes will return erratic results when the actual velocity of a pistol caliber is close to a bottom-end rifle velocity--I ran into this once or twice with 10mm loads before. Set for rifle type--not handgun--if your velocities are closer to say 1500 or more fps and then see what is returned.

RemoWilliams · June 19, 2018, 07:31 PM

In response to the comments above, no, I don't believe the two significantly higher readings were accurate. There was more felt recoil on those shots, but not that much more. They may have been higher velocity, but not that high. Poor choice of words on my part regarding the chronograph, I just couldn't reconcile how the two readings that were so different could pop up among all of the other apparently normal or expected readings. The reloads that were subsequently fired were loaded to have a target velocity of 1250 FPS, and the unit did show them to be in that range with no surprises there. The gun was about 12" from the unit. I was firing from the bench using a rest, so position from the unit was pretty consistent. Up until this point I have had good results with the unit, with both pistol and rifle readings. I will keep in mind the tip regarding the rifle settings with the faster pistol velocities. I have a couple of boxes of S&B that I will shoot with the chronograph to see how they perform again. If the two high readings from this session are ignored, there was still an extreme spread of 564 FPS. That is, if any of the readings can be believed.

stagpanther · June 20, 2018, 12:11 AM

2nd time asked--what make is the chrono unit? 12" is pretty far distance from the gun. It may also need time to do it's calculations after each shot is taken and need time to reset--and are you resetting the unit for each projectile weight when changing ammo type? I've shot quite a bit of high-pressure 10mm and seen this before--change to rifle type and it should straighten out.

rock185 · June 20, 2018, 12:36 AM

RW, I have been using chronographs for a very long time, and have chronographed 10mm factory and handloaded ammo since the time only Norma factory ammunition was available. Not to worry. Your S&B 180 grain ammo did not actually reach anything like 1800-2000 FPS from your pistol. I have seen all kinds of weird readings from chronographs. Crazy high, crazy low, erratic velocity spreads,etc, etc. Variations in the quality of the light, sunny, cloudy, position of the sun, muzzle blast from this or that cartridge, revolvers with their barrel/cylinder gap. You name it, it can all affect your results. Some days, chronographed velocities are so suspect, as to be usable at all. This was with more than one manufactuer's chronograph. By the way, 12" is pretty close to have your chronograph set up. I place the screens several feet from the muzzle. Makes life a lot easier when using the chronograph.....ymmv

I've not sprung for a LabRadar unit, Yet, but they are reported to have their own idiosyncrasies.

stagpanther · June 20, 2018, 12:47 AM

My money is on proper set-up for the 10mm--otherwise all his calibers tested would be erratic as well. If the unit is a labradar--yeah, it's pretty sensitive to the set-up and weapon position--partly because it needs to be triggered by the report concussion to go active to trace the projectile path--and that muzzle blast varies greatly depending on weapon type and muzzle configuration. Since the unit is successfully acquiring the projectile path--it's error is in the internal calculations. It's possible that the unit is faulty; but it uses different algorithms for processing rifle and handgun cartridges velocity--the 10mm can be borderline between the two so I would try the rifle setting to see if that helps. Despite it's idiosyncrasies--the labradar is an indispensable part of my load testing equipment.

FrankenMauser · June 20, 2018, 12:51 AM

Quote:

The gun was about 12" from the unit. I was firing from the bench using a rest, so position from the unit was pretty consistent. Up until this point I have had good results with the unit, with both pistol and rifle readings.

That's too close.
If you had good readings prior, it was purely luck.

stagpanther · June 20, 2018, 12:57 AM

Appropriate distance is really dependent on muzzle blast concussion triggering the unit--so a muzzle device may sending a "concussion wave" sideways while an unadorned crown may be sending it mostly forward.

RemoWilliams · June 20, 2018, 05:53 AM

I am using the Labradar unit. I got it about six months ago, and I am still on a learning curve with it. Everyone's feedback is appreciated on this subject.

RemoWilliams · June 20, 2018, 06:01 AM

I do reset the unit for projectile weight, and am careful to adjust between handgun and rifle velocity ranges. Sagpanther, you may be on to something. The Valor has a significantly different crown to the barrel than the Delta Elite. it is more "dished" where the Delta is more rounded. The Labradar unit does say to protect the unit from blast, and I have been careful to keep the muzzle ahead of the unit by a couple of inches, but I might have to put up a shield as they suggest.

stagpanther · June 20, 2018, 06:34 AM

Quote:

I do reset the unit for projectile weight, and am careful to adjust between handgun and rifle velocity ranges. Sagpanther, you may be on to something. The Valor has a significantly different crown to the barrel than the Delta Elite. it is more "dished" where the Delta is more rounded. The Labradar unit does say to protect the unit from blast, and I have been careful to keep the muzzle ahead of the unit by a couple of inches, but I might have to put up a shield as they suggest.

Generally--the radar either is or isn't triggered by the muzzle blast--seems to me your's is but is not returning proper calculations. You can always call the US rep--I forget his name but he's very nice and will walk you through your issues calmly and more than likely give you a workable solution. I still say try changing to rifle (with your 10mm) and give it a go--easy to do, nothing complicated. The one thing that I really find is a weak point in the design is the battery cable interface--that jack is the same thing used on cell phones--very weak and easily distorted IMO. If your battery every falls off stressing it--or even the continued pressure from the rubber cover--can cause the connection to weaken over time. A unit that can't power up isn't very useful.

reddog81 · June 20, 2018, 02:38 PM

Sometimes my unit gets odd results also. I just delete them and move on. There's no way your ammo was getting 2000 FPS from a 10MM. The gun would have disassembled in your hand from the pressure.

I usually place the muzzle within 6' of the Labradar to get it to register 100% of the shots. Once I got the sight dialed in for some 1230 FPS 45 ACP carbine loads I had no problems.

I don't see how using different algorithms for handgun vs rifle would make any sense. There are plenty of handgun rounds that shoot faster than 1250 FPS. I'd guess the rifle setting is more sensitive and sends out more signals trying to track the bullets which typically have a smaller diameter and are moving much quicker. And that probably uses more battery than is needed for the handgun setting. The algorithms to determine the velocity of the projectile speeding away from the unit would be constant.

June 19, 2018, 11:02 AM	#1
RemoWilliams Junior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 10	10MM Valor break-in and Sellier & Bellot ammo chronographed I took my new 10MM Valor to the range. Before I fired it I removed the slide and examined the guide rails on the slide and the frame. Next I reinstalled the slide only to the frame without the spring or barrel and racked it 100 times. I took the slide off, cleaned the rails with a bore cleaning patch, removing all the oil and grey grit, then oiled the rails with M-Pro7 and repeated the process two more times for a total of 300 cycles of slide racking. at this point when I cleaned off all the sliding surfaces the patches were fairly clean. I cleaned the rails again, generously lubed the rails, barrel, and bushing, and went to the range. Took a box of Sellier & Bellot 180 grain bullets, and some reloads. Ran the S&B first just in case, and had no problems. I also wanted a baseline to compare to my reloads using my radar ballistic chronograph, and got some surprising results. Most of the shots fired were around 1100 FPS, but one of the shots was recorded at 2038 FPS, and another was at 1864 FPS. These were shots that were fired in the middle of the batch that were fired, not at the very beginning or the very end. The shots immediately before and after these two shots were in the 1100 FPS range. What I am saying is that I don’t think this was a chronograph issue. There were no problems with the reloads, either with velocity variations or with feeding. The only issues with the pistol were due to operator error. Nothing got tighter with use, the pistol is just great!

June 19, 2018, 12:44 PM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I am no chrono expert but I know that I know enough. There is no chance that either of those reported shots were anywhere near or beyond 1,800 fps. If you believe in any way that they were, you are stunting the growth of your experience with chronographs. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

June 19, 2018, 12:53 PM	#5
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	Are you using labradar? It sometimes will return erratic results when the actual velocity of a pistol caliber is close to a bottom-end rifle velocity--I ran into this once or twice with 10mm loads before. Set for rifle type--not handgun--if your velocities are closer to say 1500 or more fps and then see what is returned. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

June 20, 2018, 12:11 AM	#7
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	2nd time asked--what make is the chrono unit? 12" is pretty far distance from the gun. It may also need time to do it's calculations after each shot is taken and need time to reset--and are you resetting the unit for each projectile weight when changing ammo type? I've shot quite a bit of high-pressure 10mm and seen this before--change to rifle type and it should straighten out. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!* Last edited by stagpanther; June 20, 2018 at 12:25 AM.

June 20, 2018, 12:36 AM	#8
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,093	RW, I have been using chronographs for a very long time, and have chronographed 10mm factory and handloaded ammo since the time only Norma factory ammunition was available. Not to worry. Your S&B 180 grain ammo did not actually reach anything like 1800-2000 FPS from your pistol. I have seen all kinds of weird readings from chronographs. Crazy high, crazy low, erratic velocity spreads,etc, etc. Variations in the quality of the light, sunny, cloudy, position of the sun, muzzle blast from this or that cartridge, revolvers with their barrel/cylinder gap. You name it, it can all affect your results. Some days, chronographed velocities are so suspect, as to be usable at all. This was with more than one manufactuer's chronograph. By the way, 12" is pretty close to have your chronograph set up. I place the screens several feet from the muzzle. Makes life a lot easier when using the chronograph.....ymmv I've not sprung for a LabRadar unit, Yet, but they are reported to have their own idiosyncrasies. __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life Last edited by rock185; June 20, 2018 at 12:41 AM.

June 19, 2018, 11:40 AM	#2
David R Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Location: The swamps of WNY Posts: 753	Sound waves from the gun can mess up the crony. How far was the crony from the gun? David

June 19, 2018, 07:31 PM	#6
RemoWilliams Junior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 10	In response to the comments above, no, I don't believe the two significantly higher readings were accurate. There was more felt recoil on those shots, but not that much more. They may have been higher velocity, but not that high. Poor choice of words on my part regarding the chronograph, I just couldn't reconcile how the two readings that were so different could pop up among all of the other apparently normal or expected readings. The reloads that were subsequently fired were loaded to have a target velocity of 1250 FPS, and the unit did show them to be in that range with no surprises there. The gun was about 12" from the unit. I was firing from the bench using a rest, so position from the unit was pretty consistent. Up until this point I have had good results with the unit, with both pistol and rifle readings. I will keep in mind the tip regarding the rifle settings with the faster pistol velocities. I have a couple of boxes of S&B that I will shoot with the chronograph to see how they perform again. If the two high readings from this session are ignored, there was still an extreme spread of 564 FPS. That is, if any of the readings can be believed.

June 20, 2018, 12:47 AM	#9
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	My money is on proper set-up for the 10mm--otherwise all his calibers tested would be erratic as well. If the unit is a labradar--yeah, it's pretty sensitive to the set-up and weapon position--partly because it needs to be triggered by the report concussion to go active to trace the projectile path--and that muzzle blast varies greatly depending on weapon type and muzzle configuration. Since the unit is successfully acquiring the projectile path--it's error is in the internal calculations. It's possible that the unit is faulty; but it uses different algorithms for processing rifle and handgun cartridges velocity--the 10mm can be borderline between the two so I would try the rifle setting to see if that helps. Despite it's idiosyncrasies--the labradar is an indispensable part of my load testing equipment. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

June 20, 2018, 12:57 AM	#11
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	Appropriate distance is really dependent on muzzle blast concussion triggering the unit--so a muzzle device may sending a "concussion wave" sideways while an unadorned crown may be sending it mostly forward. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

June 20, 2018, 05:53 AM	#12
RemoWilliams Junior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 10	I am using the Labradar unit. I got it about six months ago, and I am still on a learning curve with it. Everyone's feedback is appreciated on this subject.

June 20, 2018, 06:01 AM	#13
RemoWilliams Junior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 10	I do reset the unit for projectile weight, and am careful to adjust between handgun and rifle velocity ranges. Sagpanther, you may be on to something. The Valor has a significantly different crown to the barrel than the Delta Elite. it is more "dished" where the Delta is more rounded. The Labradar unit does say to protect the unit from blast, and I have been careful to keep the muzzle ahead of the unit by a couple of inches, but I might have to put up a shield as they suggest.

June 20, 2018, 02:38 PM	#15
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Sometimes my unit gets odd results also. I just delete them and move on. There's no way your ammo was getting 2000 FPS from a 10MM. The gun would have disassembled in your hand from the pressure. I usually place the muzzle within 6' of the Labradar to get it to register 100% of the shots. Once I got the sight dialed in for some 1230 FPS 45 ACP carbine loads I had no problems. I don't see how using different algorithms for handgun vs rifle would make any sense. There are plenty of handgun rounds that shoot faster than 1250 FPS. I'd guess the rifle setting is more sensitive and sends out more signals trying to track the bullets which typically have a smaller diameter and are moving much quicker. And that probably uses more battery than is needed for the handgun setting. The algorithms to determine the velocity of the projectile speeding away from the unit would be constant.