Dipper or me screwed up?

[sody]

New to reloading and checking everything out to see how everything works and why. I pulled out the dipper that came with the Lee dies for .32 SW. Dipper size is .17 as stamped on handle. In Lee Dies info it says for Unique, 2.7 grains,
dipper .17. Now when I dump a load from dipper onto scale, I'm .5 to .6 grains less by weight. Scale is zeroed. Is dipper wrong, or what am I missing in my understanding of this? Thanks

[FrankenMauser]

Check the scale, to make sure it is calibrated.

Then, come back and read the following line:

The dipper is too small for that particular load, if the scale is calibrated.
Powder varies in size. Each lot is adjusted by the manufacturer, to achieve the best match they can for the burn characteristics that powder should have. However, there are variances. Sometimes a powder is more bulky than other lots. Sometimes a powder burns a bit faster than other lots. Sometimes, it can be considerably more dense. It happens.

If you don't trust the dipper, just weigh the charges.


I want to know how you got a .17 cc dipper with your .32 S&W dies. Mine came with a 4.0 (or 4.3?) cc dipper. I can fit an entire case, and nearly a loaded round in the dipper.

[dmazur]

The Lee chart I'm looking at shows a 0.3 dipper for 2.7gr of Unique. The handle says 0.17? That's not even on the chart.

Not saying it can't exist, but it doesn't seem to be described very well by Lee.

Here's the chart I found -

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data...ct/Dippers.pdf

[sody]

As for getting the .17 dipper with the dies, just lucky I guess. I'm sure mine is closer to correct weight than yours. I have the Lee scale. Can I buy calibration weights? Is there a type of business I could take it to, to check it?
Thanks again.

[sody]

It has .17 stamped on the handle, and in the paperwork that came with the die set, it has a chart of starting loads and .17 dipper for a number of different bullets and powders. I looked at the same chart you referenced at Lee website, and that befuddled me even more.

[ipscchef]

I do not mean to be ascerbic, but it will sound that way. Throw the dipper away, get a good scale, and just use it. I guess that is a bit harsh, but that is what I did thirty some years ago, and it is what I think you should do now. Weighing your charges is the only way that I think makes any sense. But that is just me. Scales do not care what powder you are using. Find your weights in a manual, use your scale, and you will be OK.
JMHO, and as always, YMMV.
Willy

[farmerboy]

I agree, sounds awfully confusing and if its so complicated to figure out and even then, its just ballpark close. Id say sell it and buy a good beam scale and know exactly what and how much you got in them. Boo Boo's in this hobby could cost alot more than a scale. (Alot more) !

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by dmazur

The Lee chart I'm looking at shows a 0.3 dipper for 2.7gr of Unique. The handle says 0.17? That's not even on the chart.

Not saying it can't exist, but it doesn't seem to be described very well by Lee.

Here's the chart I found -

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data...ct/Dippers.pdf

I'm showing the same thing. I've got the "new" set of dippers and it goes from 0.30cc to 4.30cc, there is no .17cc dipper as far as I am aware.

The dippers do tend to throw very conservative charges, I've found them to be lighter than they claim in most cases. ()

[Win_94]

I use the dippers for scooping the powder from the container onto the scale.

I have 4 sets of dippers for the 5 different cartridges I load for, (one per 38sp/357,) and no dipper has ever matched the charge weight I use for any specific load. Not that I couldn't just use a level dipper full, (excluding the 357,) but I would rather have a load tuned to my barrel harmonics.

[FrankenMauser]

Can I buy calibration weights? Is there a type of business I could take it to, to check it?

You can buy check weights, but it's easier to check 'general' accuracy with something of a known weight. For example: I have some .308" Swift Scirroco II 168 gr bullets that I know weigh 167.8 gr (+/-0.1 gr). I also have a .22 WMR hull that I know weighs 18.6 gr. And, I have a loaded .40 S&W cartridge that I know weighs somewhere shy of 280 grains (it's written on the case - I can't remember the exact number right now).

If I doubt my scale, I throw those on to check low, medium, and medium-high weight ranges.

For now, just grab one of the bullets you were going to load in the .32 S&W. Throw it on the scale, and verify that the weight shown is within about 3 grains of the advertised weight (assuming you're using 85-98gr bullets). If so, assume the scale is accurate. If the weight differs considerably (like 10+ grains), call Lee.

Either way, assume the dipper is not accurate.

Lee's dippers are generally designed to give you "usable" loads. They don't, necessarily, give exact loads. (And in some cases, actually give you dangerously under-powered loads, if the charge weight is not checked on a scale.)

[PA-Joe]

Each batch of powder has a slightly different density and therefore weight. That is why it is important to have a scale to check things out. You cannot rely on tables since they might be several years old and powder mixtures change sometimes. You also have to be consistent in how you use both the spoons and powder measures. You can tap the spoon on the table to get the powder to compress into the spoon a little. Then top it off. On powder measures you have to learn to double tap the handle on both the up and down stokes also to settle the powder and to make certain that it all falls out.

[mrbro]

Folks, .3cc is aprox. .017 cubic inches. The current dippers are all labeled in cc where the one very old dipper I have is labeled in cubic inches. The OP likely has an older dipper.

[Doodlebugger45]

I always viewed the dippers as kind of a novelty item. Kinda cute, but they don't fit my needs. I think I got several that were about 0.7 cc with various die sets. Now what are the odds that 0.7 cc of any powder is going to be exactly what I want to load? Let's say I wanted to throw 6.6 gr of Universal. I try the 0.7 cc dipper and it turns out it throws about 5.9 gr. That's not very close at all. So the next bigger size is 1.0 cc and I find out it throws 8.6 gr. I might be able to modify the bigger one by putting some epoxy in it or cutting down the rim, but then it won't be very good if I want to throw 8.6 gr the next day. And what happens if I want to change to Titegroup next week? The scoops will increase or decrease the desired amount by 2-3 gr each time you change to the next size. So you are pretty much stuck with whatever they happen to throw of course.

And you definitely have to weigh the charges on a scale to find out how much they are actually throwing.

Some folks believe that the dippers are immune from changing the amount of powder they throw, as opposed to an adjustable mechanical dispenser. Not true. The dippers measure a certain volume of powder, just like any other dispenser does. For some powders, the same volume might yield a different weight, just depending on how the little granules pack together that time. The same variables affect the dippers as any other type of powder measure.

They are cheap for sure. But you can get the same accuracy plus an infinitely variable volume by buying the $23 Perfect Powder Measure from Lee.

[overkill0084]

Unique isn't exactly known for it's charge consistancy. On a good day +/- .2 gr is about as good as it gets through a measure. Can't speak for dippers, but I would imagine small charges can be a bit finicky no matter how you measure. I ended up switching to AA#5.

[jmortimer]

I only use dippers for charging. The Lee Precision dippers will throw light charges unless you use them as a scoop as opposed to the recommended way which is to push the dipper in the powder and let it "fall-in" and then strike it off with a straight-edge. I "scoop" and do not strike off the powder but will allow it to be a little too full. You must have a consistent method that is repeatable and once you get there the dippers are a beautiful thing. Safest way to reload and no scales after you check your first couple scoops and no moving parts. Consistent to +/- .1 grains. Works for me.

[sody]

Many thanks to all of you. The cc to ci explanation puts that question in my mind to rest. I individually weighed 10 bullets that I'm going to use, and they came in real close on my scale, so I'll be using the scale from here on out. Again, thank, and don't any of you wander too far from the computer.

[TXJohn]

I have known lots of people that use the dippers with no problems but I would never trust them I have Three different scales (2) electronic and (1) balance beam and also have ck weights and I am always checking them against each other buy a good set of Scales and throw away those dippers just my opinion.

[Twinsig]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ht=lee+dippers

[spacecoast]

Calibrate your dippers by weighing 20 or 30 dippers' worth and divide to get an average. Unique is particularly imprecise in small dippers, better to use AA#2 or another fine-grain powder. I've dipped over 10K rounds and never had a problem.

[deerslayer303]

In my experience LEE DIPPERS ARE WORTHLESS LOL, they are ALWAYS on the light in weight sometimes more than a grain off. For pistol I use the Lee Accurate Powder Measure and for rifle I measure each charge on the scale using the dipper to do nothing more than pour the powder on the scale.

[dmazur]

Not trying to nitpick, but for learning about reloading, one of the things that is important is where the decimal place is.

0.17 cubic inches is not the same as 0.017 cubic inches, for example.

Doesn't matter in this case, as the volume you are working with is fixed and it is probably just being described incorrectly.

Unless the handle actually has .17 marked on it...then I still don't know what is going on.

[Sport45]

Just out of curiosity, what color is this dipper? That will tell us if it's one of the old models.

[Hog Buster]

A friend has a set of Lee 32 S&W dies. It contains a yellow stamped .17 dipper.

Confusing? You bet...... Just what a new reloader needs......

[amamnn]

I don't use dippers for loading cartridges, though I have a set of Lees and I do use the one mentioned (1.7 cc) once in a while when calculating the density of a new jug of powder. Dippers can be surprisingly accurate, when used properly. If you don't know how- you will be disappointed as all those folks above were. Richard Lee reveals all in a titillating dipper expose' in his book "Modern Reloading."


For those folks who were sick the day/week/month they covered metrics in Jr. High-- a cc is a measure of VOLUME--you cannot fill a 1.7cc dipper level at the top and have the thing come out wrong. The only thing that is wrong with dippers, besides being slow, is the same thing that is wrong with any volumetric powder measure--the more the powder is "fluffed" the lighter the mass or weight, of powder occupying that volume will be. So, if you are reading load data which states a load needs a particular weight of powder and you fill a dipper or a hole in a powder measure, you are trying to coordinate the measure of two different things--volume and weight. Unless you weigh every charge, you make a compromise and accept a fair degree of error, which may or may not be a problem to you. This is also why tricklers are sold and digital scale/dispenser combos and also why Harrell powder measures are so expensive. Another interesting fact I've learned is that in the metric system a cubic centimeter of pure water weighs one gram. This makes calculating weights vs volumes a lot easier--still we carry on with the much more efficient system of grains and what--cubic inches? Anyone know how to get from one to the other? Anyone care?

While the subject is open it might be worth mentioning that in addition to the variance from lot to lot in the true density of powder, the way you as a handloader handle the powder has a direct influence on load density and the uniformity of your powder drops from the measure. If you are someone who is impatient to get on with it and hurry the process, you will more than likely fluff the powder as the measure bangs and vibrates which causes the actual weight of powder in the hole in the bottom of the measure to be less and more and then less etc.... Some people are so good at fluffing they end up making compressed charges out of 80% load density...........

It's kind of interesting that Richard Lee, the man who can tell you how to be slick smooth and accurate with a dipper is also responsible for a powder measure that attaches to an expander die which when used according to Lee directions, "sticks" purposely and fluffs the powder................

[serf 'rett]

Ouch, this stuff makes my head hurt!

Tis true that the bang will vary with the same volume if density isn't consistent. More fluff less bang. While I know dipping consistently can be mastered, I take more comfort that weight will only change if the force of gravity changes. I’d recommend getting some scales.

Anyone know which phase of the moon is best for 9mm reloading? I’m now thinking the moon’s gravitation pull caused my poor showing at the last IDPA shindig.