When Does A Load Become "Compressed"...

[robhic]

... Or considered "Compressed? And how can you tell? Let me 'splain:

My friend who made my bench for me is getting his compensation in ammo. He asked me last night (after the first installment) if I could make him some 9mm HP. So as this was my first time making HP, I decided to use my "Load Book" for 9mm (singular) instead of the Lyman manual I've been using for all else.

On the Speer page I made some 115gr RN plated 9mm lo-end 4.7gr of Universal. No problem. Then I switched to the HP loads, also using Universal since it was open and in the hopper of my LEE PERFECT MEASURE. Called for 4.5gr so I put 4.5 gr in each case. Cases filled about 1/2 way. Seemed OK to me. Got my box-O-HP bullets out. 124gr plated HP from Midway (probably Ranier?). They looked a bit longer than the 115gr. And the 115gr bullets called for 1.135" OAL while the longer HP bullet seating called for 1.120" OAL.

The longer bullet with shorter OAL makes me wonder if the HP loads will be more compressed than is a good thing. They seated easy enough, no pressure or resistance but I have NO experience with compressed loads except to know they can be bad. Should I disregard the book and lengthen the OAL by .03 or .04 or something? Is there anyway to tell or is this probably not an issue since I did go very carefully by the book. My trepidation is based solely on looking into the filled cases and at the longer (than I am used to...) bullets and wondering if I am creating a problem. Thoughts? Help? My fingers thank you!

[HiBC]

Two different issues.
The term "compressed" is about putting in enough powder that the bullet must compact or compress the powder at the chosen seating depth.
Its a lengthy discussion as to whether it is good or bad...generally a small amount is OK,but not always.In some cases,a little compession is good.
But the key,a compressed load means the bullet base compresses the powder.

From what you said,you are not dealing with compressed loads.
You are,however,asking an important question.
When loading handgun ammo,the size of the combustion chamber at ignition has a significant effect on pressure.Bullet bases are full diameter of the case,so variation in depth OF THE BULLET BASE has a significant effect on combustion chamber volume,and therefore pressure.That can lead to trouble. I am talking "general rules".There is a problem with that,as each powder is different,and they react differently to any change .Seat of the pants internet "permission" to substitute components is not valid.The data tested by the powder and bullet companies may be considered 99% valid,till you observe something that says "wait a minute".
The general rule to not substitute components applies.A 124 gr bullet can have varying characteristics that can effect pressure.A number of factors can cause 124 gr bullet A to produce a different pressure thn 124 gr bullet B.
In many cases,it works.Sometimes it does not.

Its recommended to use the bullet the data was tested with.

If you are going to substitute (not recommended),instead of looking at overall cartridge length,its the base of the bullet that needs to be at the same depth for (perhaps) a similar pressure.Different bullet lengths for the same bullet weight will cause variation in the bullet base depth at the same cartridge length.Thats a problem.
The overall length matters for the mechanical function.Magazines,feeding,distance to the rifling,etc.

Not to rain on your parade,but generally I do not shoot other folks reloads,and I don't pass out my reloads.That is generally a good code.

If you are going to reload for someone else,I strongly suggest loading EXACTLY to a moderate,published load with NO SUBSTITUTIONS or variances from the data.And,I suggest you two spend developmental range time with small batch samples to be fired in his gun for function,reliability,apparent pressure and or velocity,and accuracy.You do not want to load up 500 that jam a lot.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not suggesting its a good idea to load for someone else at all.
I think maybe it gets sticky with Federal Firearms law to sell reloaded ammo without proper paperwork. Bartering reloads for services rendered might be questionable (considered "sale") as you have published your intent.

I do not intend to give you lecture,do as you choose! I'm just giving you a heads up .

[Dufus]

It sounds as though you do not have enough experience to be passing your hand loads around, but also, you are getting there.

I suggest getting more experience before hand.

Also, read some loading manuals to learn about compression and COAL.

There are just a few powders that do not like to be compressed. YOu need to learn this as well.

[Unclenick]

It would also help to provide full information. I am not clear what you mean by HP. Usually it means High Power, but you seem to be referring to it as the name of a powder. HP-38 is a powder; the same one as Winchester 231, but under the Hodgdon brand.

Every gun is different. You want to be sure to be making the lightest loads listed first and make sure they function OK, then give him progressively warmer loads.

Finally, because of the shortening of the powder space in the case, I have to ask if you got the COL (Cartridge Overall Length) number from the bullet manufacturer, or if you just took it from a same weight bullet of similar nose profile. There was a time when all bullets were made by similar methods and that worked well, but these days with different bullet constructions from different materials, it can be a hazard. See this Allan Jones article for more details on why this is so and the old practice of just going by bullet weight is no longer as safe to do as it once was.

I will spare you the usual admonitions about the liability you are incurring by loading for others, but if you are interested, use the forum search button to find past posts on the topic.

[RC20]

It sounds like your friends fingers may thank us and possibly your lawyer!

Way to iffy to comment on as we have no idea who makes the HP.

Call Midway and find out. Read what has been posted and make your decision.

I have not ever passed out reloads to anyone other than one of my brothers.
That is more they shoot some of mine that I have been shooting already.

I have shot a few lower powered reloads by someone I knew. Solid gun, and I did it.

I have had other guys hint they would like me to shoot theirs (no thank you)

Some loads you have to stay on the short SAFE) side of, 9mm for sure is one of those.

[Unclenick]

Rereading, I thing he means Hollow Point ammo, and not the powder. Hence the shorter COL for feed reliability.


Robhic,

When you seat a bullet into a case, it leaves a quantity of space for the powder. This is commonly measured in terms of the weight of water that would fit in that space, and for that reason is called Case Water Capacity. If the volume of dispensed powder you use exceeds the volume of that water, then the bullet will compact the powder when you seat it. That is what is meant by "compressed". It is compressed powder.

The ways to find the Case Water Capacity are several, and I won't bore you with the details unless you ask for them. Suffice it to say that when you have a book load and are changing the bullet and if the bullet has the same construction type as the one the load was developed for (see the article I linked to) you can compensate by keeping the percent fill (or compression) of the new load the same for the two different bullets.

[Longshot4]

I hear you talking about bullets with no clear specifics. I believe HP sounds like Hollow Point bullet. But I will not assume. Infact you leave a lot of questions just in talking about the bullet.
Is it a soft lead Plated HP? Or it could be a hard lead plated HP, It could also be a jacketed HP, or even a Barns HP... You see each bullet could easily give more friction... when traveling down the barrel. In turn drive the chamber pressure up.

I don't ever recall compressing a strait wall pistol round in the last 40... years.
When a manual calls for a compressed load they will usually make note of it.

If I were you I would dump the powder. I don't understand why you would have a question on why you don't know what the exact bullet is that you are loading. I suggest that you always keep bullets in the box that they come in so you always know what you are loading. That goes the same with primers and powder.

Go out and get a few more new manuals and read them cover to cover before you load any more. I am saying that to get you to understand better what you are doing. For your own safety and every one around you.

[Gunplummer]

I don't reload pistol bullets, but have tried compressed rifle loads. I quit doing it because I would have had to crimp the bullet. Some loads are compressed so hard it slowly pushed the bullet back out. I have no use for it.

[KEYBEAR]

The last thing you should be doing is reload for anyone . I have been reloading for years I load for my son and no one else . One little mistake and you have bought the farm . If your buddy get hurt he will not be a friend very long .

[g.willikers]

Only once have I used someone else's reloads.
Once was enough.
Beware of strangers bearing gifts.
When it comes to reloads, friends, too.

[robhic]

I do not intend to give you lecture,do as you choose! I'm just giving you a heads up .

I'm going to start by thanking HiBC for the time and extensive reply. You make good points and some I'd never thought of. I may work out a different deal to cover his costs for the bench - that's an issue I'd have never even guessed. I may also print your reply as it reads like a mini-lecture. I appreciate the information, plan on reading more and am not gonna make a compressed load on purpose, the HP (hollow point Uncle Nick) bullet was the first time used. All round nose/flat nose previously.

As far as the ammo, I planned to shoot them, myself, to check before allowing him (or anyone for that matter) as to not use someone as a test subject. I only made 5 rounds and took 1 hour to make them. I used like-for-like components, checked and re-checked lengths and weights on each bullet to be exact, hence the length of time for such a small number.

This was gonna be a one-time deal and the new bullet longer than all the ones I used before gave me pause, that's all. I do appreciate all the comments and warnings because I want to be safe before anything.

This seems like a good start and thanks to all who responded. You've given me quite a bit to digest! But learning more is a good thing, right

[robhic]

I don't ever recall compressing a strait wall pistol round in the last 40... years.
When a manual calls for a compressed load they will usually make note of it.

Longshot4, just a clarification: I had the same components as I was using the manual information for. What prompted my question here was that upon visually inspecting each filled case and noting the length of this bullet I was going to use for the first time, I wondered if it might end up compressing the powder a bit. Nothing concrete, just my visuals. I was NOT trying to make a compressed load. So I used the exact specs from the book and checked 'em VERY carefully. I'm going to try one or two out later this week if the weather gets better. (fingers crossed)

[HiBC]

robhic: Thanks for your reply.

Greatly in your favor is you are open to learning things the easy way.
Which is often far more pleasant and less costly than learning the hard way.

I suggest getting at least two reloading manuals.Get one for your favorite brand of bullets,and one for your favorite supplier of powder.Note Hogdon makes a magazine format annual.
I understand you have a Loadbook.Those are useful.
But the classic reloading manual has so much more than data.
That thick book goes through process and safety and understanding the "why".

A great deal of whatever help you may find here can be sourced back to what is found written in the load manuals.

If you pick up Hogdon,Sierra,Speer,Nosler,Accurate,etc manuals and realize every page has something to chew slowly and digest,
The day will come when you can give good answers to folks who ask questions here.

Good luck.Oh,as far as your buddy who helped with your bench...Remember"Give him a fish,he will eat for a day,teach himto fish...."
Why not invite him to come over and USE the bench and your press,etc,and help him have a hand in loading his own ammo?

If you have the room on your bench,bolt a second press on it.It can be an inexpensive one.

Two guys working together can put out some ammo. Think multiple 50 round loading blocks.

One guy runs brass through the size op. The other decaps,bells and primes.

Our sizer guy gets done.So he checks for hi primers,charges them with powder,and puts them in the load block.When the load block is full,he carefully checks powder level visually under good light.Then corks each one with a bullet.

Our #2 guy is done belling and priming.He sets up the seater die and seats a load block at a time.

Our #1 guy is done.He sets up the crimp die...

Here is a fundamental safety tip: Only one container of powder on the load bench...EVER! The right powder.And you know it is the right powder because you verify the powder in the book,then you read the label out loud,twice.

The three most likely ways to get hurt reloading,1) Wrong powder 2) No powder,squib load,makes a bore obstruction 3) Double charge.

Your visual inspection of the powder level,every time,will prevent no charge/double charge.

One container of the verified right powder will eliminate "wrong powder"

[robhic]

I suggest getting at least two reloading manuals.Get one for your favorite brand of bullets,and one for your favorite supplier of powder.Note Hogdon makes a magazine format annual.
I understand you have a Loadbook.Those are useful.
But the classic reloading manual has so much more than data.
That thick book goes through process and safety and understanding the "why".

Good luck.Oh,as far as your buddy who helped with your bench...Remember"Give him a fish,he will eat for a day,teach himto fish...."
Why not invite him to come over and USE the bench and your press,etc,and help him have a hand in loading his own ammo?

If you have the room on your bench,bolt a second press on it.It can be an inexpensive one.

Thanks, again. I do have manuals besides the "Load Book". I just was trying it this time. I also have read the "ABC's of Reloading" and other books. The internet is a great advantage, too. Plus forums!

An assistant won't work because 1) I am retired and he works full-time (young whipper-snapper!) and I reload on a whim when things allow day or night. 2) the bench is fairly small due to limited space in my house so no room even if he could come over. My grandson is my current "pupil" when school allows.

But I seem to pick up something new and useful everyday and appreciate this forum for the wealth of knowledge it contains. Thanks, again for your first post (above) and the heads up on ammo-barter. I NEVER would have considered that! Now those black helicopters overhead make more sense....

[robhic]

To sorta answer my own question (in reverse) for anyone interested ... or not. I took the loads I was questioning (5 of the HP and 5 of the RN) to the range to try today. They fired with NO problems. A bit more "snappy" than factory loads, IMO, but not as hot as a +P load. All-in-all I was pleased. Compressed? Not even close.

Accuracy was good, cases not sooty or dirty so I guess all went well. I guess you CAN'T tell if a round is possibly compressed strictly by visually looking at the loaded case and a bit longer bullet. So I learned a LOT here on the forum and a bit at the range. Thanks to all who added some to this thread, I appreciate your sharing your knowledge!!!

[Don P]

Rereading, I thing he means Hollow Point ammo, and not the powder. Hence the shorter COL for feed reliability.

Unfortunately Unclenick we have become a society of abbreviations thanks to the world of cell phones and text messages. I wonder how some folks can fill out a job application. This is no way demeaning or putting down the OP just my take on abbreviations. C U later

[Unclenick]

Well, and HP-38 came to mind because he was talking reloading and High Power came to mind because "9 mm HP" often refers to the Browning High Power pistol or sometimes a High Point pistol. He subsequently said "HP ammo", but by then my mind was off on the tangent. Saying 'HP bullet" is about the only way I can think of to constrain the reader's to think HP is "hollow point" for certain. So the issue wasn't that the abbreviation is unusual, but rather that it has multiple meanings in the context of handloading. The formal practice of writing out a term the first time you use it followed by parentheses containing the abbreviation you intend to use in rest of the common is the only way to absolutely guarantee no confusion.

[robhic]

Saying 'HP bullet" is about the only way I can think of to constrain the reader's to think HP is "hollow point" for certain.

Be careful Uncle Nick or you're gonna force me to learn even more!

[Don P]

The formal practice of writing out a term the first time you use it followed by parentheses containing the abbreviation you intend to use in rest of the common is the only way to absolutely guarantee no confusion

I hear/read that and have to chuckle over it. That will be way to much typing/banging the keyboard.

[shootniron]

When you have to stand of the press lever to get the bullet seated.

[T. O'Heir]

"...Usually it means High Power..." 'HP' only means Hollow Point to the rest of us. Unless you're talking to computer techies. Then it means Hewlett-Packard. snicker.
Anyway, compressed loads are loads with enough powder that the bullet pushes said powder down when seating. A particular powder, like IMR4227 in .30 Carbine, is compressed. That starts several grains below Max. Currently 14.5. Compression begins at about 13.5 or thereabouts.
There will be a 'c' after such data in your manual. Nothing to worry about though.
As mentioned, it'd be decidedly unusual for any handgun cartridge to be compressed with typical powders. Although max loads of 20.7 and 21.0 of IMR4227 with a 325 and 330 grain bullet in .44 mag is compressed, but not a 355 at 19.. According to Hodgdon's site.

[Unclenick]

You must not get out much.

At the OP's request, I'm closing this thread out.