Mini-14 or M1 Carbine for home defense

[chaim]

There are a few themes going so instead of specific quotes, I'll address the themes:

AR's:
Not an option right now. I live in MD. I don't want a gun that will guarantee that I'll be charged regardless of how good a home defense shoot it is. I also have one that I really need to retire as my home defense gun.

Accuracy:
No, the Mini is not a match grade gun, and it never was meant to be. Most ARs are much more accurate, no argument. However, the Mini is good for what it is supposed to be. It was designed and sold for prison guard, police patrol rifle, home defense, ranch gun, and fun gun use. It will do much better than Minute of Bad Guy at 100 yards, and certainly be much more accurate than any handgun at home defense ranges.

Cost:
I do wish both the Mini and the M1 Carbine were cheaper. I very much wish I picked one up 15-20 years ago when I first thought about it, and when they could be had in the upper $400 something to low $500 something range. Overpriced? The market decides prices and people are buying them, so I guess the market will support the current prices.

Historic M1 Carbines:
I am not buying and using a historic gun for my home defense gun. First, with collector prices, they are pretty expensive. Second, they have had an unknown life: were they beat to hell, will they need a lot of work, or will they work perfectly? Don't know. It is certainly true with all guns that they'll need a trial period before relying on them, but use a semi auto rifle that is around my parents' ages, I'd rather not. Finally, there is a finite number of them. They aren't made anymore, many fought in a war. I am a history fan. If I get a true historic Carbine or Garand, I'm babying that thing and trying to be sure it outlasts me and whomever the next owner may be. I definitely don't want to risk it spending time in a police evidence locker.

As for a classic, but not historical, rifle... If I find a good deal, I could see buying a 1960s or 1970s reproduction. Though, most of those weren't known for high quality (though, is the Auto-Ordinance I'm considering).

The main Carbine I'm considering is the Auto-Ordinance. At Buds (so we are looking at standardized prices since pricing can vary quite a bit from region to region), there is just a $22 difference between the price of the AO M1 Carbine and the Mini-14. There is a slim chance I'll go with the Inland reproduction, but I'm not sure I want to spend an additional $300.

[chaim]

Oh, that all said...

While the Mini and the Carbine are still at the top of my list, the chances I may go another way may be increasing.

More and more I'm drawn to my more emotional choice... Just look at the Winchester 92 or the Uberti Win 1866 copy. Or, to save a little money ($600 something range instead of $1000 range), even the everyday Marlin 1894 is a great looking gun. I love lever guns, and with the loading gate it would be easy to top off the 10 round mag as you go.

Also, I'm definitely interested in the Scout gun concept (or something close). The $400 something (at Buds) Mossberg MVP or Ruger American Predator with AR mags are definitely looking interesting. The Ruger Scout looks very interesting as well, but in the same price range as the AO M1 Carbine and Mini-14, I think the advantages of a semi will win out (though I still may pick it up as a fun gun someday).

[amd6547]

Lever actions are great...
I went through a period where I tried a few different lever guns.
The only real downside, is having to keep it loaded all the time. Unloading is a pain.
My longarm is a secondary weapon, after the handgun. The ability to slap a mag in and load it quickly is key.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

SWAT Magazine has a story where Ashley Emerson went through a carbine course with a Winchester 94 in .30-30. He had some great observations on the use of a lever action in that role. The article is probably 15 years old now but if you can find it, it is worth the read.

[stagpanther]

I agree that a lever is probably faster--I wouldn't hesitate to use my Rossi 92 44 mag which weighs 5 lbs in a quick action if I had to--but then once the magazine's empty it seems to me your reload options are pretty much over--unless your house has trenches built in that you can retreat to.

[rickyrick]

I do not like the way the magazine goes into the Mini14, I do not like the rock-in magazine.

If you miss the front pin, the magazine will fall back out.

[AK103K]

Its falling is actually a good thing in that case.

Although I never had it happen with one of my Minis, the rock in mags on things like the AK's do have an almost fatal flaw, that being, you can lock the mag in the gun, and yet its not properly in place.

It locks in sitting to low in the well and will not feed ammo into the gun, and the mag will not come back out of the gun, short of having the butt of the gun placed on the ground and it being kicked out. Its a really miserable malfunction, and once youve had it occur, youll do your best not to let it happen again.

As far as rock in, drop free, whatever, thats all just familiarity and training. You tend to dislike what you dont know. Or for some of us, in the case of the Mini's, what you do.

[rickyrick]

I agree, I’m very conscious about the possibility of getting the magazine in wrong so I don’t really have an issue aside from not liking it. With the Mini14, it can remain in place then fall out when you charge it. It’s been a very long time but possibly even a round can be chambered then fall out. Again memory fails me on that one.

I was looking at an old scan of the M1 carbine “Basic” field manual, which is actually quite detailed devotes only “insert magazine” in the loading section. So I assume that it must be simple to do so. It gave me a chuckle because the rest of the manual is very detailed...
All the way down to the uniform of the soldier.

It is good advice above to be well practiced in the loading methods of any gun you use, especially removable magazine type rifles.

I’ve seen people jam a bolt gun too, lol

[AK103K]

I would think it should be pretty obvious what to do with the mag while loading, but then again...

M1 Carbine mags are flat on the back and rounded with a raised seam on the front, so they are tactile enough (if youre paying attention) that you shouldnt have too much trouble getting them in right, even without looking or in the dark.

Not saying you couldnt get them started in there wrong if you work at it. I think "started" is about as far as youd get though. But, if you feel the need, continue to hammer away.

[rickyrick]

I leave with this, Mini14 is a great Ranch Rifle. It was named appropriately.
Probably not ideal for the home.




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[TBM900]

Im an owner of all three types you mentioned OP so heres my take.

Of the three I would say the M1 Carbine is by far the best option:
Fast
Light
Reliable
Low recoil/blast
No harsh muzzle flash
Outstanding ballistics for HD
And stupid fun

That said, I would NOT recommend one unless you are willing to really REALLY invest in the platform in terms of money/time/knowledge. Commercial copies are largely junk, the exception are the ones made by Fulton which are better than original USGI off the line, but they also come at a price past $1500. You can occasionally find USGI's starting around $600-700, but more often they are $1000-1500, but then you are dealing with a nearly 80 y/o platform of various refurb condition. Are you willing to invest the time/effort educating yourself on how to spot fake components? Because the market is SATURATED with them. Willing to invest in learning to (or paying for) rehab so it can be trusted with your life?

Again you can bypass all of the above with a Fulton, but it will cost you dearly. I own two of theirs (as well as have had several USGI's refurbed by them) and IMO the juice is worth the squeeze,....but you may not.

If you are willing to invest as above I say go for it, the Carbine is unmatched in its combination of effectiveness, performance, capability, ease of use, AND relatively friendly nature in our ever increasing 'ban areas'. I grew up with and have been using them on our ranch for decades. I also come from a long line of multiple vets who've used the Carbine in combat... WWII, Korea, Vietnam. All have been huge fans, which is one of the reasons we have had so many one the ranch.

But the above is a lot to ask, which is why I think the Mini 14 would likely be a better option. The Mini is really like the Carbines bigger cousin, all of the same traits just bigger, heavier, louder. The squawking about accuracy is largely nonsense, todays models are every bit as accurate as the military acceptance standards for the M4/16. In my experience they are more accurate than those who complain about them are they themselves capable of.

Quality built, tough & rugged, mags & parts available online with no issues. Comes with a nice set of rings, slap in LPVO like the PA Raptor and your ready to go with red dot speed or longer range enhancement. Its pretty much turn key ready to go and more likely to survive the next round of unconstitutional bans header our way.

On to the lever gun.....I love them!
My favorite line is the older Marlin 1894 series in 38/357 (holding breath on new series).
Talk about versatile and effective!
Loaded with 38's they hit harder than a 357 wheel gun, loaded with 357 they hit harder than 556, load anywhere in between and play all you like. You can also get yourself a Lee Classic Loader and for under $50 cut your practice costs substantially.

Not as fast as the Carbine or Mini, and there is a definite learning curve to becoming proficient with them as they are easy to fumble especially under stress. Ive seen highly experienced LG shooters lock up their action and have to partially disassemble to get themselves back up again. Thats really about their biggest downside IMO. Also be aware that optics mounting can be an issue depending on model, so keep that in mind if you have bad eyes (or are getting older) and need help.

They are all great options given the specifics mentioned above, as a fan of all three my recommendation leans towards the Mini as its the easiest & cheapest to get yourself in and learn to be proficient with. (but if your willing to spend the money...a Fulton M1 Carbine really is the cats meow.....*drooling*)

Ive got a ton of experience with all three so feel free to ask any questions you like and Ill throw you my 2 cents at no cost.

[44 AMP]

I love lever guns, and with the loading gate it would be easy to top off the 10 round mag as you go.

You've mentioned this, along with a desire for at least 10rnds capacity, and a couple folks are now talking about rock & lock vs. drop free magazines...

And you've mentioned the political climate where you live. So, I have to ask, do you understand the difference between legal self defense and infantry combat??

Sure, a good infantry combat rifle will work, but several things about that rifle don't translate to needed features for personal home defense. And, most of those features will get you a thumbs down from those who aren't gun owners or users, let alone the die hard anti-gun zealots.

It may be a bolt gun, but if its got a 20 or 30 round mag sticking out of it, you aren't a mild mannered hunter who had to use their gun in self defense, you are a Rambo wanna be, just looking for an excuse to shoot someone.

That's the way they will look at it. Count on it. Even if it isn't an "evil black rifle" if its got a "big clip" its not PC.

Another point to consider, every round you fire has legal consequences. The idea of the hero laying down his own covering fire is something for action FANTASY movies and bad novels. Legally you don't get to shoot or shoot at the bad guys unless you are in gravest extreme, and that determination will be made by OTHER PEOPLE afterwards.

The big advantage to a rifle over other guns is range. But range in a personal defense situation is short, or so juries are taught to believe. Remember, you have to be justified shooting. Someone 60, 80, 100yds away? Real difficult to justify. Even if they are shooting at you, a jury might not see it as justified.

Just as you are thinking of the possible tactics of battle defending your home & self, beforehand, you also need to think about the legal pitfalls, BEFOREHAND. Now, I don't mean to say you need to not shoot if your life is at risk, until you assess the after action legal risks, I'm saying you need to look at these things when planning your response(s) to an attack.

I'm not a fan of using any rifle inside the house, unless it is your only option. the idea of a running gun battle with a half dozen dedicated attackers doesn't seem realistic to me, but then I don't live where you live, and don't know the likely threats you would face.

I will mention this, about lever guns with loading gates, and being able to "top off" as you go, yep, if you've got more ammo ON you, you can do that. You can ALSO do that with any pump or semi auto shotgun.

Most places, mere property, no matter how valuable to you, isn't considered justification for shooting someone who's trying to take it. Without a clear immediate threat to your person (or others, family, etc.) generally the courts will not consider shooting justified.

A lever gun is the most "inoffensive" rapid fire rifle you can find, superior in rate of aimed fire (in trained hands) to a sporting bolt action, but still not military looking. A pistol caliber carbine gives you the most magazine capacity, 9, or 10 usually, compared to a deer rifle (.30-30) with 5 or so. Either one is a "sporting" rifle, not a combat arm, and that's a plus where you are.

We're all the heroes of our own stories, but realistically, if you do what the heroes do in the movies, you could win and still go to jail. It shouldn't be that way, but if you arm yourself with a "weapon of war" in either the literal historical sense, or a reproduction of one, or a civilian "assault weapon", you are upping the odds of survival in the field and lowering the odds of survival in the courtroom, today.

Good Luck which ever way you chose to go.


(and personally, I'd pick the mini 14 over the M1 Carbine, but that's just me. Never was a fan of the carbine, and I HAVE a mini-14 already...)

[2damnold4this]

I thought the recommended self defense firearm in Maryland was an expensive double barrel shotgun stoked with bird shot and fired into the air from the balcony of your house.

[44 AMP]

only if you listen to Joe Biden...

I don't...

[2damnold4this]

I think you and the other people posting on this thread have given much better advice than Biden. I don't think the Op would go wrong with any of his choices.


I would go with the Mini of the Op's list but I would also consider a pump shotgun like an 870 or M500.

[Art Eatman]

I don't see what age has to do with utility. Guys are still out there after Bambi with Krags.

I'd "go to" a Mini or an AR. If my father's bringback M1 Carbine were at hand, I'd have no qualms about using it.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by TBM900

Im an owner of all three types you mentioned OP so heres my take.

Of the three I would say the M1 Carbine is by far the best option:
Fast
Light
Reliable
Low recoil/blast
No harsh muzzle flash
Outstanding ballistics for HD
And stupid fun

That said, I would NOT recommend one unless you are willing to really REALLY invest in the platform in terms of money/time/knowledge. Commercial copies are largely junk, the exception are the ones made by Fulton which are better than original USGI off the line, but they also come at a price past $1500.

As a former US Army trained Armorer with an arms room full of M14s, 1911, and many different crew served MGs to look after, I have to take issue with the statement that the statement that all commercial copies are largely junk. It's true that some brands are poor executions but from my technical evaluation and real world use, I can attest to the fact that the Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine is well made, functions at least as even a newly arsenal refurbished GI version (remember, I have one), and is significantly more accurate than any GI carbine of any condition I've ever seen.

I checked over the Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine technically before I purchased mine, disassembling and inspecting my friend's carefully at the range. Trained to understand and work on the M14 which uses the same basic assembly but with a different, simpler gas system, I understand the strengths and weaknesses of the M1 Carbine's design.

Auto Ordnance's sole 'weakness' is the lack of a forged receiver and the use of some MIM parts. It's 'strengths' over the GI version is a much more accurate barrel and more reliable function. (All GI M1 Carbines show some cycling failures as it's a result of the design and ammo.) However, a forged receiver is unnecessary for a civilian weapon as it's not intended to be run for 10s of thousands of rds like the GI version was designed for. The MIM parts used in it are in fact the same type parts used in most firearms these days and again are perfectly adequate for a commercial platform. GI parts could be switched out but in my use, I've yet to see the need for them.

My AO has over 5K rds through it and last teardown for cleaning showed little to no wear, especially in any critical areas, be they forged, cast, or MIM parts. The bolt lugs showed no signs of wear and I was surprised to note that the extractor 'claw' was still sharp without any rounding of the edge. In fact, the AO's extractor claw is in better shape than my arsenal rebuilt GI carbine with less than 200rds on it.

The facts are, blanket statements like TBM900's are usually suspect and are more likely to represent a bias towards the item the author currently owns himself rather than an honest evaluation based upon first hand experience. As a trained Armorer of this type weapon and owner of both a '43 NPM GI and '12 AO M1 Carbine, I'm not biased in my evaluation. My GI version is a gem with history and patina. My AO is a commercial every day shooter to enjoy. It's perfectly adequate to fulfill it's role and as I've said, it's more reliable and much more accurate than it's military namesake.

[stagpanther]

more likely to represent a bias towards the item the author currently owns himself rather than an honest evaluation based upon first hand experience.

You talking about me behind my back again?

I got a chuckle out of this--because it's so true.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by COSteve

As a former US Army trained Armorer with an arms room full of M14s, 1911, and many different crew served MGs to look after, I have to take issue with the statement that the statement that all commercial copies are largely junk. It's true that some brands are poor executions but from my technical evaluation and real world use, I can attest to the fact that the Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine is well made, functions at least as even a newly arsenal refurbished GI version (remember, I have one), and is significantly more accurate than any GI carbine of any condition I've ever seen.

I checked over the Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine technically before I purchased mine, disassembling and inspecting my friend's carefully at the range. Trained to understand and work on the M14 which uses the same basic assembly but with a different, simpler gas system, I understand the strengths and weaknesses of the M1 Carbine's design.

Auto Ordnance's sole 'weakness' is the lack of a forged receiver and the use of some MIM parts. It's 'strengths' over the GI version is a much more accurate barrel and more reliable function. (All GI M1 Carbines show some cycling failures as it's a result of the design and ammo.) However, a forged receiver is unnecessary for a civilian weapon as it's not intended to be run for 10s of thousands of rds like the GI version was designed for. The MIM parts used in it are in fact the same type parts used in most firearms these days and again are perfectly adequate for a commercial platform. GI parts could be switched out but in my use, I've yet to see the need for them.

My AO has over 5K rds through it and last teardown for cleaning showed little to no wear, especially in any critical areas, be they forged, cast, or MIM parts. The bolt lugs showed no signs of wear and I was surprised to note that the extractor 'claw' was still sharp without any rounding of the edge. In fact, the AO's extractor claw is in better shape than my arsenal rebuilt GI carbine with less than 200rds on it.

The facts are, blanket statements like TBM900's are usually suspect and are more likely to represent a bias towards the item the author currently owns himself rather than an honest evaluation based upon first hand experience. As a trained Armorer of this type weapon and owner of both a '43 NPM GI and '12 AO M1 Carbine, I'm not biased in my evaluation. My GI version is a gem with history and patina. My AO is a commercial every day shooter to enjoy. It's perfectly adequate to fulfill it's role and as I've said, it's more reliable and much more accurate than it's military namesake.

As a former owner of 3 new AO Carbines I can attest to the fact my experience matches that of many, many others who had issues with theirs. I waited over a year to buy one, thought I would wait until they worked out 'early bugs'. After waiting and against my better judgement having seen early poor reviews, I ordered one, it arrived and functioned fine for about 200 rounds. After that it was all downhill with multiple FTE/FTX/FTF until AO exchanged it after one Email, good for them and that gave me hope. Second one arrived and right out of the box I had multiple FTF, after a few Emails they told me to return it.

Received it with a note stating they 'tuned' the original magazine and gave a second 'tuned' magazine....seriously? Several more contacts confirmed that in their opinion it was 100% --> if using their 'tuned' mags, which is obviously nonsense to spend that sort of cash and be told such. Then add the fact that it still wasn't reliable even with their mags, so I returned that one and griped until I was sent a third. The 3rd was pretty much a clone of the first except it started off with sporadic failures and continued until it got to the point of failing every 1-2 mags.

I got rid of it. My experience was not unique, there are countless similar stories and videos to be found on line. I really wanted to like it as I would love to see a reliable Carbine Clone at a reasonable price. The faux 'Inlands' have had similar issues with reliability as well (again see the many reviews on line and video) I haven't bought one myself but know some that have and they were quite disappointed as well.

Interesting that I have multiple nearly 80 year old USGI Carbines that function flawlessly, but a brand new modern manufacture clone can't be made consistently reliable. Too bad. And no you don't have to take my word for it, again there are many examples from others as well.

That said, my 'blanket statement' wasn't actually a 'blanket statement', I clearly stated they were largely junk, and that statement still stands un-refuted. Feel free to point me to another maker of non-USGI Carbines that have consistently produced reliable versions, I am all ears. There were some 60's thru 80's production builders using surplus USGI parts that made some quality Carbines, but even most of those had 'good periods' and 'bad periods'. I used to parts harvest back in those days, many of those functioned beautifully, but the individual USGI parts were worth more than whole so I would tear them down.

At the price point for either the AO or faux-inland, and given that they use no USGI parts (that have value), one would be better off buying a low end USGI and refurbishing it yourself. If you make the effort you can still hunt them down in $500-700 range, throw a bit into it and you'll have an original that will at least hold its value.

Lastly, where about do you live?
Im in a four-corners state but travel all over the SW & C US.
I ask because of your comments about reliability & accuracy of your clone versus USGI Carbines.
I love a good wager and would love to do an on video side by side with your AO versus one of my USGI's. Ill even let you pick the bet and set the criteria :-)

[amd6547]

Weather permitting, I’ll find out how my Auto Ordnance compares to my GI Inland Monday morn.

[davidsog]

Ive got an old VHS tape put out by Second Chance Vests that has hours of the owner, Rick Davis

Well send Ol’Ricky over here. He can were his second chance all he wants,LMAO!!!



You can take a selfie with him. Call it advertising gimmick vs reality. An old vhs tape of advertisements. You made my night but seriously, do not try it in the real world. Getting hit even with body armor causes serious injury and you are not going to be in the fight afterwards.

[AK103K]

Originally Posted by davidsog

Well send Ol’Ricky over here. He can were his second chance all he wants,LMAO!!!



You can take a selfie with him. Call it advertising gimmick vs reality. An old vhs tape of advertisements. You made my night but seriously, do not try it in the real world. Getting hit even with body armor causes serious injury and you are not going to be in the fight afterwards.

Well, at least he did it on tape, in front of crowds of witnesses, and on a pretty regular basis. From what I remember too, a lot of those were done at those pin matches they used to sponsor back in the 80's and 90's.

Where are all these people who wear the vests youre talking about that were incapacitated? Must be dead, right? Who would leave them alive if they were all just laying there, out of the fight?

The way youre talking, whats the point of a vest at all then?

Funny, all those cops testifying in the tape who were shot wearing the SC vests, did just what you say they couldnt.

Anyway, heres a couple of links, the first is the first time he shoots himself. The other, shows a number more. I think he says in the second, hes done it over 200 times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwBLL7Z3OvU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIhyETXW1u0

[Red Devil]

If you plan to use a .223 carbine indoors? W/o earpro?

Get used to sayin' the word... "What?"




Red

[rickyrick]

Red, I’ve fired a Mini14 inside of a building. You are correct, it is a miserable experience.

[chaim]

OK, again I'll address several themes here and not only individual quotes...

Reliability of the M1 Carbine:
Whatever I get will be tested out to be sure my particular example is reliable before I'd rely on it for personal defense. Even guns with a reputation for reliability can be unreliable- I had a Winchester 94 (in .45LC), a Ruger KP345 and a SIG P226 that were unreliable. So, if it is unreliable, I'd get it fixed or get rid of it, if it was only semi-reliable it would only be used for fun at the range, and if was reliable, I'd use it for home defense.

Self defense v. infantry combat...

I set out what I want out of this gun in my first post. No where did I mention covering fire, suppressing fire, or expecting to take on a platoon. I'm simply looking at realistic scenarios and planning for the worst case. At least around here, home invasions are no longer only for the rich and drug dealers (they aren't super common, they certainly aren't the main risk, but they do happen). While the numbers may or may not be overly pessimistic, it is commonly reported that it often takes 3 rounds to stop a dedicated attacker, and police often miss as many as 2/3 of their shots in a real world, adrenaline filled situation. While a long gun should be more accurate than a pistol, and even a revolver round out of a long gun should have more power, I haven't seen different numbers for long guns, so I want to plan for a realistic worst case (2-3 attackers, 6-9 rounds to stop each attacker, and in a self-defense gunfight with people shooting back at us, we may have time for one reload). Sure, take one out of the fight and the others are likely to run since no one wants to be shot (and all the more so in a home invasion where there is a group with some organization, they are unlikely to either be hopped up on something or someone who really wants to get at you, the most likely scenarios for the dedicated attacker who keeps on coming), but I want to be prepared if it doesn't go down that way.

Noise:
Any gun shot indoors will have the capability of damaging hearing. It is something I generally consider in my defensive choices (I don't usually use .357mag for indoors defense). However, if I'm going to the rifle, I am doing it because I need to stop someone now.



All that said, I came very close today to buying a Henry Big Boy in .45LC. It is a truly beautiful rifle, and as I said many times, I love lever rifles. If it had a loading gate in the receiver I'd likely have bought it. I was justifying it to myself based on the fact that a rifle is not my go-to home defense gun. Handguns are more close at hand, I often carry one around the apartment, when there is a knock and I'm not expecting someone I slip a J-frame or my SIG P290 in my pocket if I'm not otherwise carrying, and I have a handgun in a quick access safe by my bed. I'll have the handgun in my hand first about 90% of the time and I'll get to my long gun if it buys me the time to do so (or if I know there is a threat so I don't need to be discrete but somehow have enough time to get to the long gun before it fully materializes). So, I'd have the 10 rounds in the Henry plus whatever was in my handgun. It has me looking more closely at the Uberti, Winchester and Marlin options along with some extra rounds for topping off when the need arises.