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Old November 24, 2017, 03:05 PM   #1
mehavey
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200 yds -- Pistol -- "Gee Officer, I thought she was a deer...."

YGBSM....
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/24...-for-deer.html
> "...western New York shot and killed a woman out walking her dogs
> Wednesday evening after mistaking her for a deer, officials said.
>
> Thomas Jadlowski, 34, believed he saw a deer in a field about 200 yards
> away from him when he shot Rosemary Billquist in the hip with a high-
> powered pistol.

This goes so unbelievably beyond "mistake" on so many levels that I have to wonder what "...the rest of the story" will be.

That said -- and with the hope that The System throws the book at him -- it also goes to once again demonstrate how fatal a lower-torso/pelvic GSW can be.

This thread is over a year old. It was reopened to post an update. Might be worthwhile to read the update post on page 3 of the thread before posting a response. Just sayin...

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Old November 24, 2017, 03:07 PM   #2
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(If we believe the article at face value...)
200 yards with a pistol, not being able to see or know what he was shooting at, who knows what else?

This is the kind of guy that gives responsible gun owners a really bad name.

I sincerely hope he at least gets a jail felony to prevent him from ever holding a gun again.
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Old November 24, 2017, 04:15 PM   #3
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He shot her way after quitting time. It was completely dark when he shot her. So far no charges have been filed. The DEC is calling it a "hunting accident". I can't believe it. This person should be in jail and charged with murder. She was shot 40 minutes after sunset!
This isn't an accident, she was shot as a result of him committing a crime...hunting illegally. He claims she was 200 yards away when he shot her with his pistol....BS. It was too dark to even see her at that distance at that time. I can't believe the NYS Police turned this over to the DEC.
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Old November 24, 2017, 04:20 PM   #4
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I sometimes hunt with a scoped .357. About max range, in the light, is 100 yds. It's hard for me to believe he could hit anything @ 200yds in the dark. It must be bad reportage.
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Old November 24, 2017, 04:51 PM   #5
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Not condemning deer hunting but it seems I've read
through the years quite a few stories of people being
mistaken for deer by "deer hunters."

I think a certain breed of hunter gets so frustrated by
not being able to bag an animal that he/she becomes
anxious to shoot and perceives glimmers of game
that really are not.

I've been told by people in Wisconsin that during deer
season with thousands upon thousands out hunting,
it isn't even safe to stay indoors because some will
shoot randomly at or toward buildings out of frustration.
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Old November 24, 2017, 05:11 PM   #6
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first of all, I'm not in any way condoning this guy's behavior. But deer fever can make a person see things that aren't there.

I've done it once or twice myself. A few years ago I was elk hunting and just a few minutes before sunset I saw what I thought was a nice bull elk moving through some trees a few hundred yards away. The bad light, distance, and the desire to see an elk conspired to make me see what I wanted to see. It turned out to be a couple hunters calling it a day. No, I didn't take a shot at them; I had been glassing, so my rifle was actually in my lap at the time.

Anyway, I agree with a previous poster; if he really did take a shot after quitting time, he should have the book thrown at him. Twice.
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Old November 24, 2017, 05:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
She was shot 40 minutes after sunset!
I've never seen any regulations that didn't allow shooting to at least 30 minutes after sunset and in some states it is an hour. There is still enough light 40 minutes after legal sunset, and 40 minutes prior to sunrise, to make a shot. Sunrise and sunset is when the sun appears and disappears on the horizon. There is light from the sun long before and after that happens.

Not defending the guy. But the timing of the shot isn't really the issue. I don't know what the law says in NY, but in most of the rest of the country he would have been at most 10 minutes past legal shooting time and it would have been possible to see a deer at that time.
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Old November 24, 2017, 06:28 PM   #8
buck460XVR
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Originally Posted by jmr40 View Post

Not defending the guy. But the timing of the shot isn't really the issue. I don't know what the law says in NY, but in most of the rest of the country he would have been at most 10 minutes past legal shooting time and it would have been possible to see a deer at that time.
The linked article states it is illegal to hunt in NY after sunset, so the timing of the shot is an issue. He also was trespassing according to the article. While I agree with UncleEd about folks wanting so bad to shoot a deer they see things that are not really there, I do not agree that folks in Wisconsin shoot randomly at houses or other buildings on purpose out of frustration. Lived there for 63 years and have never heard that one. Buildings, like folks riding in their car while going down the road do occasionally get shot. But like anywhere else in the country, it is because the shooter do not make sure of what was behind the target, were shooting over a hill or there was a ricochet. What this dirtball did in New York was a tragedy that never should have happened. I assume the pressure from peers to get a deer is what motivated him to hunt after dark, shoot onto property he had no permission to access and to not readily identify his target. All IMHO, criminal acts.
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Old November 24, 2017, 08:59 PM   #9
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I've never seen any regulations that didn't allow shooting to at least 30 minutes after sunset and in some states it is an hour.
You've got to hunt in more states so you know what you're talking about. Other than water foul and some migratory birds, most states have big game end at sunset. NY has had this law as long as I've been hunting here, and that's over fifty years. PA has the same thing, as well as every other state I've hunted in. This is exactly why they have that law. Safety.
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Old November 24, 2017, 10:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmr40
Not defending the guy. But the timing of the shot isn't really the issue. I don't know what the law says in NY, but in most of the rest of the country he would have been at most 10 minutes past legal shooting time and it would have been possible to see a deer at that time.
"Most" being a critical word.

The hours in my state are 1/2 hour before sunrise to sunset. New York hours are sunrise to sunset. http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8305.html

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; November 26, 2017 at 09:54 AM. Reason: typo
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Old November 25, 2017, 07:07 AM   #11
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I sometimes hunt with a scoped .357. About max range, in the light, is 100 yds. It's hard for me to believe he could hit anything @ 200yds in the dark. It must be bad reportage.
I used to hunt with a .357 Herrett barreled T/C Contender that easily reached out 200 yards, and farther...

The Encore pistols chambered in 'rifle' cartridges will accurately shoot well past that...
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Old November 25, 2017, 07:32 AM   #12
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Is it more likely he was shooting at the dog and missed? 200 yards in dim light w a pistol? Not saying it can't be done but it does take more skill then the avg guy.
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Old November 25, 2017, 08:00 AM   #13
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NYS goes by a multiple use practice .Anyone can be there =I can be hunting deer and in the same area someone can be out walking their dogs ! Yes , it's not good to be hunting deer when suddenly a hiker shows up ,not even dressed in 'hunter orange' .
The woman , even after hours ,should have been dressed in orange and her dogs also !
The article doesn't state what kind of pistol or cartridge.
As for the comment "who hunts deer with a pistol ?" I DO ! as do thousands of others . Handgun hunting of big game started about 1970.
I use a 44mag revolver , iron sights [no scope] and that's perfectly appropriate out to 50-60 yds. The deer ? all have been shot only once !
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Old November 25, 2017, 11:11 AM   #14
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Bottom line is that he owns that bullet regardless of how dark it was.
Now he needs a lawyer.
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Old November 25, 2017, 11:43 AM   #15
buck460XVR
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Originally Posted by mete View Post
NYS goes by a multiple use practice .Anyone can be there =I can be hunting deer and in the same area someone can be out walking their dogs ! Yes , it's not good to be hunting deer when suddenly a hiker shows up ,not even dressed in 'hunter orange' .
The woman , even after hours ,should have been dressed in orange and her dogs also !
Multi-use? The article said this......Jaime Billquist also said his wife was shot on their next-door neighbor's property and that Jadlowski didn't have permission to be hunting on the property.

That means where the woman was shot, there was no "multi-use", because there was not, legally, anyone supposed to be hunting there. Why are you so intent on laying some or all of the blame on the victim? 40 minutes after sunset, would blaze orange be anymore visible in darkness than any other color? During legal hunting hours and on property where hunting is known to be happening, it is wise for anyone in the field to wear blaze orange. But this was not the case, and for a non-hunter to believe they were at risk of being shot in a scenario as such would be really grasping at straws....and this is what you seem to be doing.

The guy was an idiot. He was hunting after hours, trespassing and did not identify his target. Even if it was a deer, in those conditions, with a handgun, he was counting on hope and a prayer to even hit a deer, and it would have been an illegal kill. The woman was not at fault in any way and trying to lay any blame at all on her says a lot for where one's idea of hunting is all about. I was in the field last week virtually every day from sunup to sundown. Didn't hardly a day go by where I didn't hear shooting before legal hunting hours and/or after. Folks feeling so pressured to get a deer, they feel they have to "bend" the rules to get one. That poor woman died because some idiot broke multiple laws in a vain attempt to make himself feel Macho, and not appear a failure, in front of his peers. He needs to pay the piper.

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Old November 25, 2017, 11:55 AM   #16
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My father-in-law told me that he was hunting in Pennsylvania with some buddies. They were on one side of a creek. A guy on the other side took a shot at them at a distance. They yelled and screamed. He took another shot. So they fired a volley towards him (not at him). Then he got the point. People can be idiots.

This guy should go to jail for a long time.
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Old November 25, 2017, 12:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Is it more likely he was shooting at the dog and missed? 200 yards in dim light w a pistol?
Doesn't really matter, does it? However, news reports are that he stated he thought she was a deer.

Quote:
Multi-use? The article said this......Jaime Billquist also said his wife was shot on their next-door neighbor's property and that Jadlowski didn't have permission to be hunting on the property.

That means where the woman was shot, there was no "multi-use", because there was not, legally, anyone supposed to be hunting there. Why are you so intent on laying some or all of the blame on the victim? 40 minutes after sunset, would blaze orange be anymore visible in darkness than any other color? During legal hunting hours and on property where hunting is known to be happening, it is wise for anyone in the field to wear blaze orange. But this was not the case, and for a non-hunter to believe they were at risk of being shot in a scenario as such would be really grasping at straws....and this is what you seem to be doing.
So right, the shooter was POACHING! It was after hours and he was trespassing. Aside from that, he failed to properly identify his target.

Why this guy isn't in jail is beyond me.

There is a case in Maine from years ago that just breaks my heart. Karen Wood was shot in her own back yard by a hunter. She was killed. No jail for him. Everyone "knows" you don't go outside dressed like she was dressed, right? http://outthere.bangordailynews.com/...n-maine-woods/
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Old November 25, 2017, 01:04 PM   #18
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Keep in mind, this isn't the only recent hunting accident. These are all from November, some in the last few days...
Maine, another woman killed by hunters... http://www.wcsh6.com/news/local/woma...dent/486831900

AZ Fireman killed in CO ... https://www.azcentral.com/story/new....ado/885285001/

Guy shot by B-I-L in NY on Thanksgiving Day... http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/....ounty-20171124

Guy shot by fellow hunters in WI ... http://www.sheboyganpress.com/story/...ent/890477001/

NH Bicyclist shot by hunter... http://www.concordmonitor.com/Police...trail-13902620

KY man killed by hunter ... http://www.wdrb.com/story/36916526/....inridge-county

In other news, Marin Miller of Ohio is charged with reckless endangerment because he mistook a fricking brown truck for a deer and killed it with a single shot. He illegally shot across a roadway for which he received an additional charge.
http://www.erienewsnow.com/story/369...utauqua-county

Maybe if the truck has been dressed in hunter orange...{sarcasm}
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Old November 25, 2017, 01:13 PM   #19
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00 NOC stated:

Quote:
Keep in mind, this isn't the only recent hunting accident. These are all from November, some in the last few days...
Maine, another woman killed by hunters...
AZ Fireman killed in CO ...
Guy shot by B-I-L in NY on Thanksgiving Day...
Guy shot by fellow hunters in WI ...
NH Bicyclist shot by hunter...
KY man killed by hunter ...
In other news, Marin Miller of Ohio ... mistook a fricking brown truck for a deer and killed it with a single shot.

Maybe if the truck has been dressed in hunter orange...{sarcasm}
Maybe if more people were locked up for involuntary manslaughter for being stupid with a weapon, hunters would be more certain of their targets before they did something irreversible.

These are not people that we want representing the rest of responsible gun owners. While some may call that callous, there are enough anti's looking for poster children to kill gun rights for responsible gun owners.
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Old November 25, 2017, 03:59 PM   #20
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More than 50 years ago, my father was giving the NRA Hunter Safety Class, several times every fall. He did it for a at least a couple decades, and from the time my brother and I were big enough to be useful carrying things, we helped. This was in New York state.

State law required either completion of the NRA Hunter safety course, or a hunting license from another state, in order to issue a hunting license (small or big game).

I cannot see the legal requirements being any less now than they were then, so if the "hunter" who shot that woman had a license, it means that someone explained the safety rules and game laws to him, at least ONCE.

Therefore, what ever he did, or didn't do, cannot be ascribed to ignorance, but to willful choice. Period.

Some folks simply make bad choices...and tragically, sometimes other people suffer from them.

A couple of points in the linked article, which are not being mentioned in the discussion, so far, are #1, the "40 minutes after sunset" is the time the shooting was reported. Note that, reported, not the time the shot was taken.

Also, people are assuming that "after sunset" means after dark, and this isn't necessarily the case. After official sunset time, there is twilight, a period of lessening light, but still allowing visibility for some time, dependent on local conditions. THEN comes full dark. SO, there could have been enough light to see his target, when he made the shot. At this point, we simply don't know.

The other item not being mentioned in this discussion (until now) is that the report said the hunter tried to give the woman medical aid, after reaching her, and realizing he hadn't shot a deer. This tends to counter theories that the he deliberately, knowingly shot a person, in my mind.

Of course, we don't have all the relevant details, at this point, but it seems to have been an actual accident, rather than a deliberate homicide.

One of the big PR problems we face as gunowners, and hunters is the press's instant and automatic labeling. Anyone who steps off the pavement with a gun is a "hunter", and it doesn't matter to the press if they are an ethical, legal hunter, or a deliberate poacher, or just an irresponsible idiot who isn't in the city.

Likewise, any and every one who has a gun in their hands is a "gun owner", (at least for the time they are holding the gun) and it matters little to the press if they are legal or not.

Since a person died, as a direct result of his actions, I believe some level of manslaughter conviction is appropriate. One shouldn't get a complete pass, just because you (honestly) thought it was a deer. Not Murder, (assuming the "I thought it was a deer" is believed), but not an "oh well, hunting accident, so sad, but not your fault" pass on what happened.
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Old November 25, 2017, 04:16 PM   #21
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The truck caught my attention, as well:
Quote:
Another hunting accident happened in the same county on Friday when Robert Meritt’s pick-up truck was struck by a bullet. He and his passenger were unharmed, but the bullet “totally disabled the truck,” according to the Chautauqua County Sheriff’s Office.

The alleged hunter, Marvin C. Miller, told law enforcement he mistook the brown truck for a deer.
- Miami Herald




Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSecondBest
You've got to hunt in more states so you know what you're talking about. Other than water foul and some migratory birds, most states have big game end at sunset.
You can't have hunted very many states, then. Your assumption of superior knowledge, in an attempt to discredit another member is grossly incorrect.

Of the 50 United States, only ONE has 'sunrise to sunset' legal shooting hours for big game (or deer specifically). That is NY.
A few others have very complicated and variable shooting hours, such as MA, AK (due to extreme changes in day length), GA, OR, and WI (their "zones").

All but two of the other states - that's 42 total (84%) - operate based on the Civil Twilight principle, and define legal hours as 30 minutes (or 1/2 hour) before sunrise to 30 minutes (or 1/2 hour) after sunset.

WA operates on a schedule of legal shooting hours that does not align perfectly, but roughly equates to the common 30/30 "Civil Twilight".
AZ uses a "daylight shooting hours" definition that basically says, "If you can see well enough to identify the target, you can shoot it."

Nearly all of the above do have some exceptions to those hours for very special units, or very special seasons. But the vast majority of seasons, units, and zones adhere to the basic state regulations.
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Old November 25, 2017, 05:10 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by FrankenMauser View Post







Of the 50 United States, only ONE has 'sunrise to sunset' legal shooting hours for big game (or deer specifically). That is NY.
A few others have very complicated and variable shooting hours, such as MA, AK (due to extreme changes in day length), GA, OR, and WI (their "zones").

All but two of the other states - that's 42 total (84%) - operate based on the Civil Twilight principle, and define legal hours as 30 minutes (or 1/2 hour) before sunrise to 30 minutes (or 1/2 hour) after sunset.

WA operates on a schedule of legal shooting hours that does not align perfectly, but roughly equates to the common 30/30 "Civil Twilight".
AZ uses a "daylight shooting hours" definition that basically says, "If you can see well enough to identify the target, you can shoot it."

Nearly all of the above do have some exceptions to those hours for very special units, or very special seasons. But the vast majority of seasons, units, and zones adhere to the basic state regulations.
....all of what you said still makes what the shooter did illegal, regardless of what state you are talking about, since it was 40 minutes after sunset and he could not identify his target. Still makes him an idiot, a poacher and guilty of homicide.
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Old November 25, 2017, 05:43 PM   #23
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Given that this particular shooting happened in New York, other states' laws aren't relevant, so there's no reason to bring them into this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
A couple of points in the linked article, which are not being mentioned in the discussion, so far, are #1, the "40 minutes after sunset" is the time the shooting was reported. Note that, reported, not the time the shot was taken.

Also, people are assuming that "after sunset" means after dark, and this isn't necessarily the case. After official sunset time, there is twilight, a period of lessening light, but still allowing visibility for some time, dependent on local conditions. THEN comes full dark. SO, there could have been enough light to see his target, when he made the shot.
It was Mr. Jadlowski himself who reported the shooting, so the possibility you seem to be raising -- that he shot Ms. Billquist before sunset and then waited over 40 minutes to report the shooting -- doesn't look like much of a mitigating circumstance. Whether there was "enough light" doesn't matter in terms of the legality of what he did; if he was shooting after sunset, he was violating the law.
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Old November 25, 2017, 06:46 PM   #24
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Bottom line is that he owns that bullet regardless of how dark it was.
Yep, the idiot failed to properly identify his target. Years ago "thought he/she was a deer" was almost always given a pass. Now negligent hunters who mistakenly shoot humans are often charged with manslaughter.

Quote:
Now he needs a lawyer.
The shooter will be bankrupt when its over.
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Old November 25, 2017, 07:24 PM   #25
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The shooter will be bankrupt when its over.
Which may not amount to much $. Jadowski lives on Cornish St. in Sherman. Houses there are small frame homes and mobile homes, mostly. Checking real estate prices and rentals show the houses going for $44-105K, many are run-down. So I doubt Jadowski has a lot to lose financially to this.
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