Old Rifle ID Please

model18 · October 5, 2011, 05:39 AM

This old gun is unmarked except for a 4 digit serial # . It is centerfire and appears to be around a .25 , bore is in great shape despite the external rust. internal box magazine, The guts of the bolt are missing.

Any help ID'ing this rifle will be greatly appreciated!

**Mike Irwin** · October 5, 2011, 06:24 AM

It appears to be a completely trashed late model Japanese Arisaka in 6.5x50.

It looks distinctly as if it has been through a fire.

model18 · October 5, 2011, 06:30 AM

no down in a basement!! I didn't really think it was a military rifle, when I looked at it, but I'm sure you're right. A wall hanger, I suppose.

**Mike Irwin** · October 5, 2011, 09:02 AM

Definitely a military rifle with the stock cut back.

The tells are the straight bolt handle, the amputated stock, and the military-style ladder rear sight.

model18 · October 5, 2011, 09:09 AM

there was something really simplistic and "cheap" about it and I figured a "boys" rifle in .25 Rem or something, but the mil thing works the more I look it over. My friend bought an old house and it was in the basement, so he brought it over to me to ID, but with no markings and me being no expert I turned to the forum. Thanks for the info, Mike!!!

**Mike Irwin** · October 5, 2011, 09:29 AM

I bet there are markings under all that schmutz. Try taking some 0000 steel wood and some light oil and gently rubbing the usual areas where you'd find markings. I bet you'll turn something up.

natman · October 5, 2011, 02:32 PM

On top of everything else, it appears to be missing the bolt internal parts.

model18 · October 5, 2011, 02:43 PM

yes that's mentioned in my original post. even if the bolt parts were available I wouldn't shoot it!

James K · October 5, 2011, 04:28 PM

I don't think it is a "real" Japanese rifle; I think it is a training rifle, originally made for the Japanese equivalent of High School ROTC to shoot blanks. I would guess that when the person who brought it back from the Pacific, or perhaps someone he sold it to, found out what it was, it was just abandoned.

In support of that, the bolt appears to have no locking lugs, the trigger guard and floorplate appear to be a single piece of stamped steel, and the stock is one piece rather than the two piece stock used in almost all Japanese service rifles of that general era.

I suspect the bolt parts were taken out to prevent the rifle from being fired, which would be dangerous.

Today, those training rifles are a mild collectible and have some value; unfortunately, due to its having been altered and allowed to rust, that one has little value, though it might bring $20 or so at a gun show.

Jim

model18 · October 5, 2011, 04:35 PM

thanks, james k that makes alot of sense. it is so cheaply made, it's not even funny. I have seen and held a few Ariska's over the years and this one just didn't look right.

Old 454 · October 5, 2011, 09:25 PM

Arisakas were not know for there quality especially later in the war, you might look on the barrel to see if the Japanese Imperial marking has been filed off so that in the Japanese eyes there were now of no value.

Later in the war butt plates were of wood and were nailed into the stock.

If you are interested in old military rifles a Mosin Nagant can be had for about $100.00 and if the gun shop that you make your purchase at will let you look through there inventory you can find some mighty fine rifles!

James K · October 5, 2011, 10:11 PM

First, it is not a Type 38 or a Type 99, even a late war model. The receiver opening and magazine are far too small for either the 6.5 or 7.7 cartridge. Further, even the last production Type 99's had the standard bolt, with locking lugs on the front and a standard extractor. The opening is large enough for the 6.5 blank cartridge, which is one reason I tagged it as a training rifle, though cruder than most I have or have seen.

But after doing some checking, I think it possible that that rifle could be a "last ditch" rifle. By that I mean not a late Type 99 (like Old 454 refers to), but one made for the 8mm Nambu pistol cartridge. There were several designs and I don't have one so I am going by pictures, but there is some resemblance, especially in the stamped trigger guard. There were not many made, though, and I have only seen two, neither of which looked exactly like that one.

Neither a training rifle nor a "last ditch" would have a "mum" on the receiver, so it would not have been ground off. The bluing and finish, under the rust, look too good to be on a "last ditch" rifle, so I'll stick with a training rifle for the moment.

Maybe someone more expert can help.

Jim

James K · October 6, 2011, 02:32 PM

There is a possibility that that is a true "last ditch" rifle, chambered for the 8mm Nambu pistol cartridge. And if it is, it is far from worthless. I recommend you take it to a gunsmith and have a chamber cast made. Then compare it to an 8mm pistol cartridge. If none is available, it would be close to a 7.62 Russian pistol cartridge (7.63 Mauser) or a .30 Luger cartridge. (Neither would be the right cartridge, but the 8mm Nambu is a bottle neck pistol round of the same type, so you can get an idea.) If the gun is chambered for something else, get the dimensions of the chamber and we will try to help.

Jim

model18 · October 7, 2011, 04:55 PM

I can get my pinky finger in the chamber??? The box mag looks too big for a pistol cartridge like the 8mm Nambu, but then again, I'm no expert.

James K · October 7, 2011, 07:18 PM

Thing is that the gun is in very poor condition and if a training rifle would have little value. But those "last ditch" rifles in 8mm Nambu are real scarce and IMHO would bring a few bucks even in poor shape. The bolt face looks to me like it is too small for the 6.5 or 7.7 rifle cartridges but it is hard to tell from the pictures.

All the training rifles I have seen have full length actions and, again from the pictures, that rifle seems to have a short action.

Jim

model18 · October 10, 2011, 05:31 AM

the bore is also smaller than 8mm. the barrel is rifled, but even if it was complete I wouldn't think of shooting it! The Japanese surely had a different mindset, that it was the man and not the weapon that made the soldier.

October 5, 2011, 05:39 AM	#1
model18 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Posts: 419	Old Rifle ID Please This old gun is unmarked except for a 4 digit serial # . It is centerfire and appears to be around a .25 , bore is in great shape despite the external rust. internal box magazine, The guts of the bolt are missing. Any help ID'ing this rifle will be greatly appreciated!

October 5, 2011, 06:24 AM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	It appears to be a completely trashed late model Japanese Arisaka in 6.5x50. It looks distinctly as if it has been through a fire. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 5, 2011, 09:02 AM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Definitely a military rifle with the stock cut back. The tells are the straight bolt handle, the amputated stock, and the military-style ladder rear sight. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 5, 2011, 09:29 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I bet there are markings under all that schmutz. Try taking some 0000 steel wood and some light oil and gently rubbing the usual areas where you'd find markings. I bet you'll turn something up. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 5, 2011, 06:30 AM	#3
model18 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Posts: 419	no down in a basement!! I didn't really think it was a military rifle, when I looked at it, but I'm sure you're right. A wall hanger, I suppose.

October 5, 2011, 09:09 AM	#5
model18 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Posts: 419	there was something really simplistic and "cheap" about it and I figured a "boys" rifle in .25 Rem or something, but the mil thing works the more I look it over. My friend bought an old house and it was in the basement, so he brought it over to me to ID, but with no markings and me being no expert I turned to the forum. Thanks for the info, Mike!!!

October 5, 2011, 02:32 PM	#7
natman Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2008 Posts: 2,607	On top of everything else, it appears to be missing the bolt internal parts.

October 5, 2011, 02:43 PM	#8
model18 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Posts: 419	yes that's mentioned in my original post. even if the bolt parts were available I wouldn't shoot it!

October 5, 2011, 04:28 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't think it is a "real" Japanese rifle; I think it is a training rifle, originally made for the Japanese equivalent of High School ROTC to shoot blanks. I would guess that when the person who brought it back from the Pacific, or perhaps someone he sold it to, found out what it was, it was just abandoned. In support of that, the bolt appears to have no locking lugs, the trigger guard and floorplate appear to be a single piece of stamped steel, and the stock is one piece rather than the two piece stock used in almost all Japanese service rifles of that general era. I suspect the bolt parts were taken out to prevent the rifle from being fired, which would be dangerous. Today, those training rifles are a mild collectible and have some value; unfortunately, due to its having been altered and allowed to rust, that one has little value, though it might bring $20 or so at a gun show. Jim

October 5, 2011, 04:35 PM	#10
model18 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Posts: 419	thanks, james k that makes alot of sense. it is so cheaply made, it's not even funny. I have seen and held a few Ariska's over the years and this one just didn't look right.

October 5, 2011, 09:25 PM	#11
Old 454 Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Location: Chesterton Ind. Posts: 822	Arisakas were not know for there quality especially later in the war, you might look on the barrel to see if the Japanese Imperial marking has been filed off so that in the Japanese eyes there were now of no value. Later in the war butt plates were of wood and were nailed into the stock. If you are interested in old military rifles a Mosin Nagant can be had for about $100.00 and if the gun shop that you make your purchase at will let you look through there inventory you can find some mighty fine rifles!

October 5, 2011, 10:11 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	First, it is not a Type 38 or a Type 99, even a late war model. The receiver opening and magazine are far too small for either the 6.5 or 7.7 cartridge. Further, even the last production Type 99's had the standard bolt, with locking lugs on the front and a standard extractor. The opening is large enough for the 6.5 blank cartridge, which is one reason I tagged it as a training rifle, though cruder than most I have or have seen. But after doing some checking, I think it possible that that rifle could be a "last ditch" rifle. By that I mean not a late Type 99 (like Old 454 refers to), but one made for the 8mm Nambu pistol cartridge. There were several designs and I don't have one so I am going by pictures, but there is some resemblance, especially in the stamped trigger guard. There were not many made, though, and I have only seen two, neither of which looked exactly like that one. Neither a training rifle nor a "last ditch" would have a "mum" on the receiver, so it would not have been ground off. The bluing and finish, under the rust, look too good to be on a "last ditch" rifle, so I'll stick with a training rifle for the moment. Maybe someone more expert can help. Jim

October 6, 2011, 02:32 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There is a possibility that that is a true "last ditch" rifle, chambered for the 8mm Nambu pistol cartridge. And if it is, it is far from worthless. I recommend you take it to a gunsmith and have a chamber cast made. Then compare it to an 8mm pistol cartridge. If none is available, it would be close to a 7.62 Russian pistol cartridge (7.63 Mauser) or a .30 Luger cartridge. (Neither would be the right cartridge, but the 8mm Nambu is a bottle neck pistol round of the same type, so you can get an idea.) If the gun is chambered for something else, get the dimensions of the chamber and we will try to help. Jim

October 7, 2011, 04:55 PM	#14
model18 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Posts: 419	I can get my pinky finger in the chamber??? The box mag looks too big for a pistol cartridge like the 8mm Nambu, but then again, I'm no expert.

October 7, 2011, 07:18 PM	#15
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Thing is that the gun is in very poor condition and if a training rifle would have little value. But those "last ditch" rifles in 8mm Nambu are real scarce and IMHO would bring a few bucks even in poor shape. The bolt face looks to me like it is too small for the 6.5 or 7.7 rifle cartridges but it is hard to tell from the pictures. All the training rifles I have seen have full length actions and, again from the pictures, that rifle seems to have a short action. Jim

October 10, 2011, 05:31 AM	#16
model18 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Posts: 419	the bore is also smaller than 8mm. the barrel is rifled, but even if it was complete I wouldn't think of shooting it! The Japanese surely had a different mindset, that it was the man and not the weapon that made the soldier.