HD in a small apartment.. - Page 3

mnero · April 29, 2011, 04:07 PM

OOO buck might be a good comprimise on the penetration concerns. Is a rifled slug likely to go through an individual and still have any ballistic properties left or will it tumble around inside the person and therefore be of little risk to anyone else? I have never seen one used except on a paper target, but I would think they would not be likely to exit a person with much spin or force left in them. For me bird shot then a rifled slug in the second barrel, but I am wondering about the risk of using the slug? It is a 20 gauge coach gun.

Achilles11B · April 29, 2011, 10:11 PM

Quick question that's kind of on topic but kind of not at the same time:

I've seen a lot of .223 HD ammo that claims to be designed for 'maximum expansion without overpenetration', would these be good to even consider or would the frangible route be best?

mnero · April 29, 2011, 10:45 PM

I would be reluctant to use the .223 rem. If you hit the target it won't exit, as it tends to tumble inside the body and lose all of its ballistic properties, but if you miss and it goes through a very thin wall or a window, it may travel a good distance still.

Sriracha · April 29, 2011, 11:11 PM

I second the opinion that over-penetration is over-scrutinized.

Minimize the total number of projectiles fired by both you and the assailant.

If this means using 00 buck to quickly end the fight, then so be it.

jct61765 · April 30, 2011, 01:13 AM

Glaser safety slugs or corbon. Very low penetration in walls, doors etc. Devastating to the human body. If corbon is good enough for the air marshals its good enough for me.

rjrivero · April 30, 2011, 07:19 AM

In Toledo, you just need a sock with a can of peas if you have the right mind-set.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?se...cal&id=6948142

Ghost22 · April 30, 2011, 08:57 AM

Back when I lived in an apartment 2 years ago, I keep my 9mm loaded with 100 gr. Corbon Powerball (i.e. a 90 gr. hollowpoint with 10 gr. of rubber in the nose). Prior to buying the 9mm, I also kept a Winchester 110 gr. hollowpoint load in my .357. My philosophy was any load will be able to go through those very thin walls, but if I can cut down on how many walls it went through that’s at least reducing the risk of harming someone innocent. The light/fast hollowpoints I picked has less than optimal penetration on a target (10ish inches in ballistics gel if remember right), but are more likely to either stay in the target or lose most of their velocity if they exits. Also, a light/fast bullet is more likely to fragment if I missed and hit the siding the lined much of exterior my second apartment.

mnero · April 30, 2011, 10:03 AM

Jct, that is a great point about the air marshalls; I bet they don't want any holes in the plane

Bartholomew Roberts · April 30, 2011, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles11B

I've seen a lot of .223 HD ammo that claims to be designed for 'maximum expansion without overpenetration', would these be good to even consider or would the frangible route be best?

Like anything .223 needs good ammo selection. Some of the really light rounds are so limited in penetration that they are limited in where they are useful. And as mnero pointed out, if you have a large window or plank exterior in your background, .223 and buckshot will both go through those; but .223 may travel much farther.

I would stay away from frangible ammo. Frangible is usually used to reduce damage on backstops at ranges. It tends to be less reliable than normal ammo and inconsistent in what it does from what I've read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jct61765

if corbon is good enough for the air marshals it is good enough for me

According to this article, Air Marshals use Speer Gold Dot 125gr JHP.

And you can learn more about Glaser Safety Slugs here.

theblakester · May 11, 2011, 12:10 AM

IMHO, any round that will reliably stop a bad guy will also penetrate multiple walls, but to many people's surprise, most rifles and hand guns penetrate more walls than buck shot. If you value your life and your families' lives more than that of a bad guy, don't use bird shot for home defense in any dwelling, therefore #4 buck shot would be your smallest, least penetrating option. Practice, preparation, practice, practice and preparation are all very important. I live in a duplex, and I use #3 buck shot in my 20 gauge close to my bed (I keep my 12 gauge in another section of the house loaded with #1 buck shot). It's readily available at most stores that sell ammunition. I don't suggest attempting to clear any rooms, unless you have to get to a loved one in another room. Get insurance, and let the police handle that. If you do have to get to a loved one in another room, a pistol is more easily maneuverable, but in a shoot out a shotgun w/ buck shot will end the fight the quickest (assuming you do your part--center of mass). However, practice and preparation are key with any weapon you decide to go w/, because the best weapon to use is the one that you are the most efficient with. Oh ya don't forget to practice and be well prepared!
Check out these links for penetration tests with different guns and loads
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

bigbaby · May 11, 2011, 12:25 AM

I live in an apartment, alone. So all I have to worry about is me. I keep a 38 pistol on the night stand. I have a few shot guns but they aren't usually loaded. I figure at close range, like anywhere in my apartment, I probably won't miss. Sure I don't want to hit the neighbors, but what can I do. I can't not shot at a burglar if he is armed or attacking. It's bad enough that you have to watch your back on the street, but these days you aren't even safe at home.

Bubba in c.a. · May 12, 2011, 02:04 PM

Much is said about one's responsibility for the end result of every round or every pellet sent down range. But in reality, could that be construed to mean that one should not shoot a dangerous perp if the background is not optimal???
What are you going to do? Re-holster and hope the next time the circumstances are better?
Up close and dangerous, my choice would be buckshot, and at room distance it doesn't really matter if we are talking 12 or 20, 00 or 4, low recoil or standard. At room distance, what is important is massive power and quick. Another good choice would be .223 hollow point or frangible, or any fat-bullet handgun round with hollow points. I'd even throw in .38+p.
Over-penetration can partially avoided by ammo choice. Misses sailing off into the distance can be partially avoided by training and skill. That's about where it stands. Using the BGs body as the bullet stop is the best deal.

April 29, 2011, 04:07 PM	#51
mnero Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2011 Location: east coast Posts: 244	OOO buck might be a good comprimise on the penetration concerns. Is a rifled slug likely to go through an individual and still have any ballistic properties left or will it tumble around inside the person and therefore be of little risk to anyone else? I have never seen one used except on a paper target, but I would think they would not be likely to exit a person with much spin or force left in them. For me bird shot then a rifled slug in the second barrel, but I am wondering about the risk of using the slug? It is a 20 gauge coach gun. __________________ "I'm what ya call a 'conscientious objector'; you know a coward". Bender "futurama"

April 29, 2011, 10:11 PM	#52
Achilles11B Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Posts: 595	Quick question that's kind of on topic but kind of not at the same time: I've seen a lot of .223 HD ammo that claims to be designed for 'maximum expansion without overpenetration', would these be good to even consider or would the frangible route be best? __________________ Good equipment will never be a substitute for good training.

April 29, 2011, 10:45 PM	#53
mnero Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2011 Location: east coast Posts: 244	I would be reluctant to use the .223 rem. If you hit the target it won't exit, as it tends to tumble inside the body and lose all of its ballistic properties, but if you miss and it goes through a very thin wall or a window, it may travel a good distance still. __________________ "I'm what ya call a 'conscientious objector'; you know a coward". Bender "futurama"

April 30, 2011, 10:03 AM	#58
mnero Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2011 Location: east coast Posts: 244	Jct, that is a great point about the air marshalls; I bet they don't want any holes in the plane __________________ "I'm what ya call a 'conscientious objector'; you know a coward". Bender "futurama"

May 11, 2011, 12:10 AM	#60
theblakester Member Join Date: May 6, 2011 Posts: 88	hand guns, rifles and shotguns penetration tests IMHO, any round that will reliably stop a bad guy will also penetrate multiple walls, but to many people's surprise, most rifles and hand guns penetrate more walls than buck shot. If you value your life and your families' lives more than that of a bad guy, don't use bird shot for home defense in any dwelling, therefore #4 buck shot would be your smallest, least penetrating option. Practice, preparation, practice, practice and preparation are all very important. I live in a duplex, and I use #3 buck shot in my 20 gauge close to my bed (I keep my 12 gauge in another section of the house loaded with #1 buck shot). It's readily available at most stores that sell ammunition. I don't suggest attempting to clear any rooms, unless you have to get to a loved one in another room. Get insurance, and let the police handle that. If you do have to get to a loved one in another room, a pistol is more easily maneuverable, but in a shoot out a shotgun w/ buck shot will end the fight the quickest (assuming you do your part--center of mass). However, practice and preparation are key with any weapon you decide to go w/, because the best weapon to use is the one that you are the most efficient with. Oh ya don't forget to practice and be well prepared! Check out these links for penetration tests with different guns and loads http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

April 29, 2011, 11:11 PM	#54
Sriracha Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2005 Location: GA Posts: 310	I second the opinion that over-penetration is over-scrutinized. *Minimize the total number of projectiles fired by both you and the assailant.* If this means using 00 buck to quickly end the fight, then so be it.

April 30, 2011, 01:13 AM	#55
jct61765 Member Join Date: January 15, 2011 Location: nh Posts: 31	Glaser safety slugs or corbon. Very low penetration in walls, doors etc. Devastating to the human body. If corbon is good enough for the air marshals its good enough for me.

April 30, 2011, 07:19 AM	#56
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	In Toledo, you just need a sock with a can of peas if you have the right mind-set. http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?se...cal&id=6948142

April 30, 2011, 08:57 AM	#57
Ghost22 Member Join Date: January 19, 2006 Posts: 89	Back when I lived in an apartment 2 years ago, I keep my 9mm loaded with 100 gr. Corbon Powerball (i.e. a 90 gr. hollowpoint with 10 gr. of rubber in the nose). Prior to buying the 9mm, I also kept a Winchester 110 gr. hollowpoint load in my .357. My philosophy was any load will be able to go through those very thin walls, but if I can cut down on how many walls it went through that’s at least reducing the risk of harming someone innocent. The light/fast hollowpoints I picked has less than optimal penetration on a target (10ish inches in ballistics gel if remember right), but are more likely to either stay in the target or lose most of their velocity if they exits. Also, a light/fast bullet is more likely to fragment if I missed and hit the siding the lined much of exterior my second apartment.

May 11, 2011, 12:25 AM	#61
bigbaby Member Join Date: May 11, 2011 Location: Baltimore Posts: 79	I live in an apartment, alone. So all I have to worry about is me. I keep a 38 pistol on the night stand. I have a few shot guns but they aren't usually loaded. I figure at close range, like anywhere in my apartment, I probably won't miss. Sure I don't want to hit the neighbors, but what can I do. I can't not shot at a burglar if he is armed or attacking. It's bad enough that you have to watch your back on the street, but these days you aren't even safe at home. __________________ "Do I preach to you when you are laying stoned in the gutter? No. Now beat it!" Futurama Last edited by bigbaby; May 11, 2011 at 07:25 AM.

May 12, 2011, 02:04 PM	#62
Bubba in c.a. Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Posts: 49	No perfect bullet, no perfect solution Much is said about one's responsibility for the end result of every round or every pellet sent down range. But in reality, could that be construed to mean that one should not shoot a dangerous perp if the background is not optimal??? What are you going to do? Re-holster and hope the next time the circumstances are better? Up close and dangerous, my choice would be buckshot, and at room distance it doesn't really matter if we are talking 12 or 20, 00 or 4, low recoil or standard. At room distance, what is important is massive power and quick. Another good choice would be .223 hollow point or frangible, or any fat-bullet handgun round with hollow points. I'd even throw in .38+p. Over-penetration can partially avoided by ammo choice. Misses sailing off into the distance can be partially avoided by training and skill. That's about where it stands. Using the BGs body as the bullet stop is the best deal.