Prefer bullet to fully penetrate or not?

[hogdogs]

what good is 3000 ft/lbs of energy if 2500 of it is in a tree on the other side?

Peet, In all reality... The full 3,000 ft/lbs was in the deer. It started upon impact and as it passes thru, it begins to lose energy. it isn't fair to believe that only 500 lbs. killed the deer or we would feel 500 total is plenty. What ever is left as it exits is what hits the tree or whatever. But it was 3.000 that put that 3/4 inch hole in him

As for me, I just hope to make a lethal enuff shot that the deer expires real quick so I can see him fall avoiding the tedium of blood trailing
Brent

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by hogdogs

It started upon impact and as it passes thru, it begins to lose energy. it isn't fair to believe that only 500 lbs. killed the deer or we would feel 500 total is plenty.

Well, actually 500ft/lbs IS plenty for a deer. Ok, maybe not "plenty" but it's enough.

My example is a bit exaggerated on the retained energy side. I suspect that it's closer to 50%. In any case, whatever energy the bullet has when it exits the other side is wasted. It's only purpose was to pound your shoulder harder than necessary to kill a deer.

[Northslope Nimrod]

OK. Here is why I started this thread....and now it is more pressing.
I regularly hunt elk with a 30-06. Most shots under 80 yards in heavy timber. I have been wanting a .35 Whelen for more punch (killing power).

If the .35 Whelen won't make a difference, then I won't bother.

UPDATE: Well, a .35 Whelen in a new Remington 750 just popped up for sale at a very good price. So talk me into it or out of it. ...and please hurry.

[257]

here's another way to look at this... if i had to take a bullet, i'd rather it go completely through me.

[Brian Pfleuger]

If you want the gun then buy it but don't buy it under the illusion that you "need it" for elk. You don't. People shoot elk regularly with the 243. A 30-06 is more than sufficient. Critters of any kind with holes in both lungs will be dead in short order.

[hogdogs]

For me and my spartan life style, I feel the .30-06 is the be all and end all for north america's "big game". But if you want the .35 go-on-git-you-some
Seems the ammo costs a bit more and is a little less variety than the venerable -06.
Brent

[FrankenMauser]

If you reload, buy the Whelen. If you don't, stick with the '06.

[Pointer]

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what good is 3000 ft/lbs of energy if 2500 of it is in a tree on the other side? 


If the target is dead it don't matter much...

You will benefit if the animal has two holes to bleed out so it will be easier to find blood trail if you must track it a little.

I. too, prefer the bullet to expend nearly all of it's energy INSIDE the target... and FALL out the other side on the ground within a few feet POE...

[Todd1700]

rather than have full energy transfer

There is actually very little energy transfered by a bullet to a soft tissue target. A bullet that expands to two times it's original size and exits a deer will kill him just as fast as one that expands to two times it's original size and stops just under the hide on the far side.

You will see a slight increase in dropped right there kills with bullets that don't exit but people misunderstand why. It really has nothing to do with energy transfer. The reason is that the bullets which fail to exit are typically more lightly constructed and expand/fragment much more. More expansion and fragmentation will do more internal damage.

Energy is really a poor indicator of a projectiles lethal qualities anyway.
For example: A factory loaded 22-250 with a 50 grain bullet has more muzzle energy than a 45-70 factory load with a 405 grain bullet. We are being charged by an 1100 pound Kodiak brown bear. You can have the one that boosts more energy on the ballistics charts. I'll take the 45-70.

For a real good laugh consider this. A .17 remington firing a 20 grain bullet generates about 800 ft/lbs of energy. My compound bow only generates about 60. But an arrow from my compound will kill a cape buffalo. Anyone want to try that with a .17 remington? LOL!

Don't get hung up on this energy nonsense. A bullet doesn't impart any more energy (or knock down) into a target than the gun does into your shoulder. See Newtons law of physics about equal and opposite reactions.

[jdscholer]

There is a world of difference between deer and elk. A lung shot deer will probably pile up within 300 yds. A lung shot elk might go a mile. A mile in heavy timber, with lots of other elk tracks, is a lot more fun to tromp if you have a whoppin great blood trail to follow. jd

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Todd1700

Energy is really a poor indicator of a projectiles lethal qualities anyway.
For example: A factory loaded 22-250 with a 50 grain bullet has more muzzle energy than a 45-70 factory load with a 405 grain bullet. We are being charged by an 1100 pound Kodiak brown bear. You can have the one that boosts more energy on the ballistics charts. I'll take the 45-70.

There are two kinds of energy that matter to bullets. Kinetic energy and momentum. The reason that a 45-70 is better for a bear is momentum.

Kinetic energy is what does damage beyond the actual path of the bullet, it is what expands the bullet and what causes fragmentation. Momentum produces penetration.

Originally Posted by Todd1700

Don't get hung up on this energy nonsense. A bullet doesn't impart any more energy (or knock down) into a target than the gun does into your shoulder. See Newtons law of physics about equal and opposite reactions.

While that is true on a technical level, it does not adequately explain the behavior of the bullet. After all, there's not a hole in your shoulder after you pull the trigger so it's obvious that there's more going on than pure energy transfer. More than just the amount of energy transfered, we must also know the amount of area that the energy is transfered into (lbs/in^2), the amount of mass the energy is transfered into (the gun vs the bullet), as well as the amount of time it takes to transfer that energy, the "impulse", on both the target and your shoulder.

[Daryl]

If I shoot a 100 lb deer with a particular bullet at a particular velocity from x cartridge, and the bullet exits, but the deer dies within 3 seconds, does it matter if the bullet exited?

If I shoot a 1000 lb buffalo with the same bullet at the same velocity from the same cartridge, but it doesn't exit, and the buffalo dies within 3 seconds, does it matter that the bullet didn't exit?

I've done both of the above repeatedly with my primary hunting rifle using the same bullet and load.

An exit wound is nothing more than an extra hole in a hide, made after the bullet has done all of it's damage to the internals. It'll bleed more if the animal requires trailing, but that's about the only difference.

As long as a bullet is constructed to penetrate sufficiently to reach the vitals on the intended animal, yet will expand sufficiently to cause massive trauma to the vitals on the animal, I couldn't care less if it exits or not.

An exit leaves a better blood trail for easier follow up if needed; no exit leaves me with an extra "trophy" when I find the bullet.

Daryl

[Osageshooter]

I have used Ballistic tips for a lot of years and performance on deer has been excellent. Sometimes their was no exit wound. Usually no big deal. Recently I have been using a lot of TSX bullets and they always exit. Tell you what. Shoot a deer in fairly dense woods a half hour after sunset and have it live for three seconds (shot clear through the lungs), sometimes they can run far enough to make it a real pain to find. Dead, yes. Next to a log half under a pile of leaves in a direction you didn't think it went. Next day you find with your eyes what the coyotes found last night with their noses. Not a common occurrance, but a good blood trail is easy to follow with a flashlight.

[Daryl]

Not a problem here, Gliesmann. Shooting hours in Arizona end at sunset; that leaves a half hour to find it...IF (and that's a dang big "IF") it actually steps out of it's tracks.

I use 145 gr Speer SPBT's and Grand Slam bullets quite a bit, and I've yet to see a deer step out of it's tracks after I hit it. An antelope I shot a few years back made it about 20 yards, but it wasn't hard to find. Deer, antelope, bear, elk, bison, and other animals all seem to hit the ground within that 3 seconds, and the vast majority never step out of their tracks.

Some exit, some don't, and I don't care either way.

Daryl

[James R. Burke]

Nice it only went a few feet. My wife uses a .243 and "all" the time complete pass thru. Maybe he hit a big bone or something. A 06 loaded correct should due a complete pass thru about anywhere you hit it, unless maybe your trying a full length shot. What do you have against a pass thru shot? Cant make on or what?

[James R. Burke]

I just keep getting in deeper. The one post is correct. Who care, just get the deer humanly.

[GeauxTide]

I likes da penetrashun.

[elkman06]

A lung shot elk might go a mile.

Hmm, after seeing probably 50 elk die, I have never seen this happen w/ a double lung shot. I guess this would be justification for a magnum, eh..?
I've seen poorly hit elk go 5 miles. Even a double lung shot w/ a bow produces excellent results w/o the animal going more than a few hundred yards. elkman06

[Todd1700]

Good debate all round and points well taken.

You really have to match your bullets to what you want or need most.

Lightly constructed rapid expanders like ballistic tips or Hornady SST's will definately do more internal damage. Of course the trade off can be decreased penetration and no exit hole. At very close range (like most of the shots here in Alabama) the things can literally seem to explode. And I have never cared for them for this reason. At long range is where they really shine becuase they do tend to be accurate and will still expand at extreme ranges. I can see why some out west would like them for this reason.

The tougher bullets like the TSX's will definately exit but are only gonna expand so much. IMHO they are a little too tough for our whitetails here in the south. Had a buddy using them out of his 7 mag for a while but he quit them after one season. Said he never had some many well hit deer run so far after the shot. Said it was like using a FMJ. He found them but it was a pain in the @$$. You shoot a deer right at the edge of nightfall here in Alabama and it runs even a mere 100 yards back into one of our all too common and rather impressive briar thickets and you have a nasty little search and recovery party on your hands. Especially in the dark with a flashlight. I think these things are better suited for the big stuff like Elk or Moose.

For all the fancy new stuff that's out there these days, to me the best all around bullet is still a simple lead tipped cup and core design. There may be bullets that beat it at certain ranges or in certain applications but from zero to 400 yards no other bullet performs as well over the whole range. They will get through a shoulder better than a ballistic tip and yet expand better on a rib cage shot than the tougher bullets.

A man could take a 30-06 with some Hornady interlocks; shoot deer with the 150gr version; Elk and Moose with the 180gr version; and not be a bit handicapped verses somebody using the latest whiz bang magnum and some 50 dollar box of depleted uranium penetrators or whatever they are selling these days. LOL!

[trooper3385]

I prefer the bullet to fully penetrate and exit. From my experience you get much better blood trails from exit wounds than entrance wounds. I've shot a couple of deer with well placed shots that ran 30, 40, 50 yds and no exit wound. There was little or no blood trail. Not that I needed one on those instance, but if it was a poorer place shot or ran a long ways, it would be much easier with a good blood trail. Animals I've shot that had exit wounds tended to have much better blood trails. I don't believe an exit wound is going to make an animal dead quicker, just easier to find because of better blood trails

[Brian Pfleuger]

From my experience you get much better blood trails from exit wounds than entrance wounds.

That is especially true for those of us who spend a lot of time in tree stands, or other elevated shooting platforms. Quite often, the entrance wound will be 3/4 of the way up the side of the animal and may not bleed any significant amount, sometimes not even enough to reach the ground. The exit wound from the same shot will be almost on the very bottom of the animal and makes for a very effective "drain".

[James R. Burke]

You do get a better trail on a exit wound, and that deer probalby is not very far away. I try for the base of the neck, if it is the biggest deer I have ever seen I would probably try a ares that is alittle more forgiving, if you should be off a inch or two.

[Shorthair]

The bottom line is where the round hit and what damage it does within the rib cage, not how much blood it leaves on the ground. I've shot a couple dozen deer over the last 20 years and have had deer shot through and through go over 150 yards. In most cases I've used Nosler Ballistic Tips, this year was no exception. The spike I shot this year had the round enter the last rib on the near side and stopped just under the skin on the off side, he dropped dead on the spot, 300 yards away. Last year I killed a spike at about 10 yards with my .45 ACP, the Federal 230 grain Hydrashok punched a hole in the ribs and stopped in the off shoulder, it went down in two steps. One year a friend of mine blew out the side of a buck with his 7 Mag, that animal went a mile with half his guts dragging along the track. Another friend once shot a fork with his 06 using a 165 grain Ballistic Tip, hit too far back, we tracked it through my swamp until I was able to wingshoot it at about 40 yards through the neck.
I generally shoot a 7 mm Rem Mag, 150 grain Ballistic Tip at 3000 fps out of the muzzle. After a couple of ruined shoulders, wherein the shock of the bullet blood shot the meat on entry and didn't fully penetrate, I switched to Partitions of the same weight. I then shot a buck in the lungs at 100 yards, punched a hole clean through, the deer, stopped, snorted, ran about 20 yards and died just inside a line of pine trees. Lungs trashed, dead deer. I eventually realized that at no time, when I did my job, did the bullet actually fail. You put a decently constructed projectile into the heart/lungs of any deer and its going to die. If you don't take care to do that no matter how big a hole you put into the thing you've got a nasty wound and a tough tracking job.

[N.H. Yankee]

I have never lost a whitetail using ballistic tips in 270, 308, 30-06, and some ran over 200lbs field dressed. Matter of fact I haven't worried about blood trails, those that didn't drop in site ( about 30 yards in the thick N.H. woods ) left such a blood, trail Ray Charles could have followed it. I have found these to be very accurate in my rifles as well. I do use the partition in my grandsons 243 and the deer he has shot have never gone more than 75 yards.

I have used Speer 130gr FN in my 30-30 exclusively and have had excellent results and hand loaded with WW748 I chrono them at 2575 fps. These will group 1 1/2 inch for 5 shots at 100yards in my Marlin.

I have never shot an Elk, not many roaming N.H. lol. Then again we do have moose and the load I use is the Federal trophy bonded bear claw 150gr in my 270. I think matching proper bullet weight and caliber to game is every bit as important as bullet design.

[James R. Burke]

This just keeps getting better!