Arizona: firearms in liquor-serving establishments

Chris_B · September 30, 2009, 12:10 PM

copy and paste:
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PHOENIX - Bartender Randy Shields was serving British brews and Arizona ambers as usual at Shady's bar in east Phoenix when he saw a customer walk in with a hunting knife strapped to his hip.

A disturbing image flashed through his mind — "that knife sliding between my ribs."

The customer willingly turned over the knife while he was in the bar, but Shields still worries about a new Arizona law that goes into effect Wednesday that will allow guns into Arizona bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.

Under the law, backed by the National Rifle Association, the 138,350 people with concealed-weapons permits in Arizona will be allowed to bring their guns into bars and restaurants that haven't posted signs banning them.

Those carrying the weapons aren't allowed to drink alcohol.

The new law has Shields and other bar owners and workers wondering: What's going to happen when guns are allowed in an atmosphere filled with booze and people with impaired judgment?

"Somebody can pull the trigger, then a bullet comes out, and people get hurt and killed," said Brad Henrich, owner of Shady's, a popular neighborhood bar that sees occasional minor scuffles. "The idea of anyone coming in with guns in a place that serves alcohol just seems ludicrous."

A sign that says "No Firearms Allowed" and shows a red slash over a gun now hangs next to Henrich's liquor license. If a bar owner does not post such a state-approved sign, people with concealed weapons are allowed in with their guns.

There is no way to track how many of Arizona's 5,800 bars and restaurants that serve alcohol have posted such signs. The Arizona Department of Liquor Licensing and Control has signs available for download on its Web site and doesn't track that figure.

The department has provided 1,300 signs to bar and restaurant owners who went to the department in person or asked to have signs mailed to them.

Some say signs look ‘scary’
A similar law took effect in July in Tennessee, with the same reaction from many bar owners who posted signs banning firearms. The NRA says 41 states now allow guns in businesses that serve alcohol.

"I hate to have to put them up," Mark DeSimone, owner of the Hidden House Cocktail Lounge in central Phoenix, said of the signs. "It looks scary. It looks to somebody like, should I go in this place because they obviously have a problem with people bringing weapons in."

***************************

Hmm. let me speak my opinion on this a bit.

"That knife sliding between my ribs". Perhaps a viable concern. Bars and resturants have cash. But what the heck does this have to do with a law that allows firearms in a bar?? Nothing. And somebody should mention to this man: no law on earth will stop somebody whose intent is to harm you. Resturants GIVE ME sharp knives right next to my glass of scotch, when I have a steak! I don't have to bring one with me! So this logic is...only a person wearing a knife would stab this guy? Flawed, stupid, and dangerous logic.

"Those carrying the weapons aren't allowed to drink alcohol. " So, the law is about concealed carry, and the law says you can't drink while carrying.
And the problem is....??????

"The new law has Shields and other bar owners and workers wondering: What's going to happen when guns are allowed in an atmosphere filled with booze and people with impaired judgment" Two points here:

1) the same thing that already happens but you just didn't know about- we're talking concealed firearms here!

2) the concealed firearms bearers are prohibiting from drinking. Read that sentence again. So he thinks that laws banning them from carrying will stop this problem becasue people will not break the law, but also thinks that people carrying will drink and therefore break the law, making the laws things that people ignore. How does that work both ways? Answer: it doesn't. Concealed firearms permits are presumably not handed out with every pack of chewing gum in AZ.

""Somebody can pull the trigger, then a bullet comes out, and people get hurt and killed," said Brad Henrich, owner of Shady's, a popular neighborhood bar that sees occasional minor scuffles." Two points here, too:

1) Your establishment is already "Shady", sir. Minor scuffles do not get enacted at reputable places with any regularity. Yours does. People are already being hurt inside your establishment. Clean up your own backyard, then complain about safety inside your joint

2) Somebody can always pull the trigger and a bullet comes out- regardless of this law or any other. That includes somebody from off the street, as well as a patron that disregards the law in the first place- a situation your establishment is already one that has that potential, see point 1

""The idea of anyone coming in with guns in a place that serves alcohol just seems ludicrous." So do not allow any member of the Police inside either.

"A sign that says "No Firearms Allowed" and shows a red slash over a gun now hangs next to Henrich's liquor license. If a bar owner does not post such a state-approved sign, people with concealed weapons are allowed in with their guns. ". An up-front, logical, and effective measure. The bar owner makes his choice, I make mine. And the problem is....????

""I hate to have to put them up," Mark DeSimone, owner of the Hidden House Cocktail Lounge in central Phoenix, said of the signs. "It looks scary. It looks to somebody like, should I go in this place because they obviously have a problem with people bringing weapons in." Then make your own clear and concise sign that states: "The owners of this establishment reserve the right to refuse entry to any patron carrying a firearm". Have a nice wooden sign made. The beef seems to be the easy to get and free sign (did I mention free) that is convenient for you.

Now, in general, if I'm a designated driver and I want to carry, then that's my right. I go in, have a coca cola, drive my friends away.

The "evil booze" and the "evil guns" do not make my choices. I make those choices. I can kill people just as easily with my car, and I can drive my car to your bar, and I can drink and then drive. Or I could choose to call a cab. I don't need to use the "evil car" that makes me kill or hurt people. Same deal with the firearm. I've had a loaded pistol in my hands 5 feet from another human many many times. I've never shot anyone

This is a non-issue in my opinion.

armsmaster270 · September 30, 2009, 12:31 PM

Well Said, and appropriate.

SteelJM1 · September 30, 2009, 12:36 PM

Agreed, good points. You should send your rebuttle to the publication that printed the article in the first place.

Fact of the matter is, certain bars and clubs have pat downs because of past problems with..ehm.. certain members of society trying to bring in illegally concealed and illegally owned weapons.

If barowners don't want weapons inside of their bar, post the sign. It's really not a big deal. The baddies will still take theirs in and do what they will, so they'll only be stopping the law abiding members of society, but alas it is the owners right.

koolminx · September 30, 2009, 12:41 PM

Why isn't there someone at EACH of these interviews bring up the questions you just put up for us to read?

Why don't the public see that these are ordinary folks that CCW, and they don't go around shooting people and taking their $ and lives!

Don H · September 30, 2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

The new law has Shields and other bar owners and workers wondering: What's going to happen when guns are allowed in an atmosphere filled with booze and people with impaired judgment?

Probabably exactly the same thing that happens in the state just to Arizona's north - nothing! CCW in bars is legal in Utah, one can drink while carrying as long as one doesn't become impaired (same as driving) and there hasn't been an issue yet! This is just another version of the old "blood running in the streets" scare that has proven to be a baseless fear any number of times and places.

rlong5 · September 30, 2009, 09:54 PM

It's also been legal in Colorado for several years now. No problems here.

rwilson452 · September 30, 2009, 10:03 PM

I has been legal in PA for a very long time. Codified in '95.

armoredman · September 30, 2009, 10:19 PM

Oddly enough, here in AZ I have seen no massive outcry in the media, (Todays the day, the beer will be red with blood!), the garbage I see nationally is almost funny. The law was designed as a lawful carry of a non drinking person in a place that serves open alcohol, such as a resteraunt. Now I will bet the topless "gentlemen's clubs" are posted as of today!

SigP6Carry · September 30, 2009, 11:07 PM

I'm not sure I see any issue with this. The way I see it: altercations are more likely to take place when alcohol is involved. I mean, the three times (since I got out of primary school) that I've had to resist the urge to fight someone, alcohol has been involved, and I wasn't necessarily intoxicated. If you take someone to a bar with you who is a DD, then it makes sense that they're also the DCC (designated conceal carry). It also makes sense to place a law that you can't carry over a certain BAC (Blood Alcohol Content).

This is what always bugged me with the CCW laws: say I went to a resturant with my friends in Chicago (if infact Chi-town was CC legal), and this resturant served alcohol, my CC would immediately be "illegal" because they served liquor. That makes no sense! Now, say I went to this fine Italian restaurant while carrying and enjoyed a couple of Peronis while I had some calamari while chatting it up with some friends: it's suddenly illegal that I'm carrying, but I could climb into a 1/2ton steel frame and drive that around?! I never understood that. Well, I do, but it seems odd to me.

Yankee Traveler · October 1, 2009, 03:59 PM

The NRA has been aiding in the enactment of rational laws.
The Irrationals are pushing back...

Glenn E. Meyer · October 1, 2009, 04:06 PM

How many legally licensed to carry folks have gotten nutsy-cookoo in bars and shot up the joint?

As compared to illegally carrying folks who shoot and stab people?

Empirical test, don't ya think?

armoredman · October 4, 2009, 01:13 PM

Lessee, 4 days, and no massive shootouts....

gyvel · October 8, 2009, 12:54 PM

The only reservation I have (and I'm both an AZ resident and CCW holder) is that someone who is a CCW holder is going to have a momentary lapse of judgement (it could happen to anyone), decide he can "handle" a few drinks (with the susequent reduction in inhibitions), get into a scuffle in a bar and end up shooting someone. We all know what the liberal media will do with THAT.

armoredman · October 8, 2009, 02:28 PM

If he knows the law, then he will know he is now breaking the law and subject to all kinds of wonderful penalties.

gyvel · October 8, 2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

If he knows the law, then he will know he is now breaking the law and subject to all kinds of wonderful penalties.

Granted, but you know as well as I do that there are people out there who are willing to "bend" the law now and then in a moment of "stupidness."

The liberal news media would have a heyday with it and it would give the whole concept of being able to carry concealed in a bar a big black eye.

That's my point in saying what I did.

TUNNUG · October 9, 2009, 01:13 AM

The NRA has been aiding in the enactment of rational laws. (quote)

Actually, the NRA stepped in and changed the bill to allow only CCW holders and not just anyone open carrying.

The bill was aimed at allowing someone who wants to go eat at a restaurant that serves alcohol without having to leave his gun in the car, like how it was before the passing of this bill.

Arizona Citizens Defense League (AZCDL) is the grassroots organization that is the originator of this bill and others that have been passed recently, in a lot of instances the NRA has stepped in and either changed or took credit for the bills.

AZCDL works with the NRA but it is an organization born in and for Arizona, they follow the template started in Virginia CDL.

I believe credit needs to go where it's due.

OPC · October 9, 2009, 01:13 PM

I'd love to start a running list of restaurants that have opted to post the 'no firearms' signs. I haven't eaten out much, but have already noticed the sign at a couple of places I will no longer be frequenting:

Chipotle (Mexican fast-food chain)
Crave (Tempe area bar & grill on Mill Ave)

Any others?

SteelJM1 · October 9, 2009, 01:22 PM

Pretty much eeeevvvery bar down Congress, 4th ave, and university in toosawn.

Icanseeyourbits · October 21, 2009, 02:49 AM

Is it a bar that serves food, or a restaurant that serves alcohol?

September 30, 2009, 12:10 PM	#1
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	Arizona: firearms in liquor-serving establishments copy and paste: *********************** PHOENIX - Bartender Randy Shields was serving British brews and Arizona ambers as usual at Shady's bar in east Phoenix when he saw a customer walk in with a hunting knife strapped to his hip. A disturbing image flashed through his mind — "that knife sliding between my ribs." The customer willingly turned over the knife while he was in the bar, but Shields still worries about a new Arizona law that goes into effect Wednesday that will allow guns into Arizona bars and restaurants that serve alcohol. Under the law, backed by the National Rifle Association, the 138,350 people with concealed-weapons permits in Arizona will be allowed to bring their guns into bars and restaurants that haven't posted signs banning them. Those carrying the weapons aren't allowed to drink alcohol. The new law has Shields and other bar owners and workers wondering: What's going to happen when guns are allowed in an atmosphere filled with booze and people with impaired judgment? "Somebody can pull the trigger, then a bullet comes out, and people get hurt and killed," said Brad Henrich, owner of Shady's, a popular neighborhood bar that sees occasional minor scuffles. "The idea of anyone coming in with guns in a place that serves alcohol just seems ludicrous." A sign that says "No Firearms Allowed" and shows a red slash over a gun now hangs next to Henrich's liquor license. If a bar owner does not post such a state-approved sign, people with concealed weapons are allowed in with their guns. There is no way to track how many of Arizona's 5,800 bars and restaurants that serve alcohol have posted such signs. The Arizona Department of Liquor Licensing and Control has signs available for download on its Web site and doesn't track that figure. The department has provided 1,300 signs to bar and restaurant owners who went to the department in person or asked to have signs mailed to them. Some say signs look ‘scary’ A similar law took effect in July in Tennessee, with the same reaction from many bar owners who posted signs banning firearms. The NRA says 41 states now allow guns in businesses that serve alcohol. "I hate to have to put them up," Mark DeSimone, owner of the Hidden House Cocktail Lounge in central Phoenix, said of the signs. "It looks scary. It looks to somebody like, should I go in this place because they obviously have a problem with people bringing weapons in." *********************** Hmm. let me speak my opinion on this a bit. "That knife sliding between my ribs*". Perhaps a viable concern. Bars and resturants have cash. But what the heck does this have to do with a law that allows firearms in a bar?? Nothing. And somebody should mention to this man: no law on earth will stop somebody whose intent is to harm you. Resturants GIVE ME sharp knives right next to my glass of scotch, when I have a steak! I don't have to bring one with me! So this logic is...only a person wearing* a knife would stab this guy? Flawed, stupid, and dangerous logic. "Those carrying the weapons aren't allowed to drink alcohol. " So, the law is about concealed carry, and the law says you can't drink while carrying. And the problem is....?????? "The new law has Shields and other bar owners and workers wondering: What's going to happen when guns are allowed in an atmosphere filled with booze and people with impaired judgment" Two points here: 1) the same thing that already happens but you just didn't know about- we're talking concealed firearms here! 2) the concealed firearms bearers are prohibiting from drinking. Read that sentence again. So he thinks that laws banning them from carrying will stop this problem becasue people will not break the law, but also thinks that people carrying will drink and therefore break the law, making the laws things that people ignore. How does that work both ways? Answer: it doesn't. Concealed firearms permits are presumably not handed out with every pack of chewing gum in AZ. ""Somebody can pull the trigger, then a bullet comes out, and people get hurt and killed," said Brad Henrich, owner of Shady's, a popular neighborhood bar that sees occasional minor scuffles." Two points here, too: 1) Your establishment is already "Shady", sir. Minor scuffles do not get enacted at reputable places with any regularity. Yours does. People are already being hurt inside your establishment. Clean up your own backyard, then complain about safety inside your joint 2) Somebody can always pull the trigger and a bullet comes out- regardless of this law or any other. That includes somebody from off the street, as well as a patron that disregards the law in the first place- a situation your establishment is already one that has that potential, see point 1 ""The idea of anyone coming in with guns in a place that serves alcohol just seems ludicrous." So do not allow any member of the Police inside either. "A sign that says "No Firearms Allowed" and shows a red slash over a gun now hangs next to Henrich's liquor license. If a bar owner does not post such a state-approved sign, people with concealed weapons are allowed in with their guns. ". An up-front, logical, and effective measure. The bar owner makes his choice, I make mine. And the problem is....???? ""I hate to have to put them up," Mark DeSimone, owner of the Hidden House Cocktail Lounge in central Phoenix, said of the signs. "It looks scary. It looks to somebody like, should I go in this place because they obviously have a problem with people bringing weapons in." Then make your own clear and concise sign that states: "The owners of this establishment reserve the right to refuse entry to any patron carrying a firearm". Have a nice wooden sign made. The beef seems to be the easy to get and free sign (did I mention free) that is convenient for you. Now, in general, if I'm a designated driver and I want to carry, then that's my right. I go in, have a coca cola, drive my friends away. The "evil booze" and the "evil guns" do not make my choices. I make those choices. I can kill people just as easily with my car, and I can drive my car to your bar, and I can drink and then drive. Or I could choose to call a cab. I don't need to use the "evil car" that makes me kill or hurt people. Same deal with the firearm. I've had a loaded pistol in my hands 5 feet from another human many many times. I've never shot anyone This is a non-issue in my opinion.

September 30, 2009, 12:31 PM	#2
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	Well Said, and appropriate. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

September 30, 2009, 10:03 PM	#7
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	I has been legal in PA for a very long time. Codified in '95. __________________ USNRET '61-'81

September 30, 2009, 11:07 PM	#9
SigP6Carry Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2009 Posts: 1,086	I'm not sure I see any issue with this. The way I see it: altercations are more likely to take place when alcohol is involved. I mean, the three times (since I got out of primary school) that I've had to resist the urge to fight someone, alcohol has been involved, and I wasn't necessarily intoxicated. If you take someone to a bar with you who is a DD, then it makes sense that they're also the DCC (designated conceal carry). It also makes sense to place a law that you can't carry over a certain BAC (Blood Alcohol Content). This is what always bugged me with the CCW laws: say I went to a resturant with my friends in Chicago (if infact Chi-town was CC legal), and this resturant served alcohol, my CC would immediately be "illegal" because they served liquor. That makes no sense! Now, say I went to this fine Italian restaurant while carrying and enjoyed a couple of Peronis while I had some calamari while chatting it up with some friends: it's suddenly illegal that I'm carrying, but I could climb into a 1/2ton steel frame and drive that around?! I never understood that. Well, I do, but it seems odd to me. __________________ -liberal gun nut = exception to the rule- -1.24274238 miles, because Russians don't need scopes- -Gun control was the Klan's favorite law, how can you advocate a set of laws designed to allow the denigration of a people?-

October 1, 2009, 04:06 PM	#11
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	How many legally licensed to carry folks have gotten nutsy-cookoo in bars and shot up the joint? As compared to illegally carrying folks who shoot and stab people? Empirical test, don't ya think? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

September 30, 2009, 12:36 PM	#3
SteelJM1 Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 496	Agreed, good points. You should send your rebuttle to the publication that printed the article in the first place. Fact of the matter is, certain bars and clubs have pat downs because of past problems with..ehm.. certain members of society trying to bring in illegally concealed and illegally owned weapons. If barowners don't want weapons inside of their bar, post the sign. It's really not a big deal. The baddies will still take theirs in and do what they will, so they'll only be stopping the law abiding members of society, but alas it is the owners right.

September 30, 2009, 12:41 PM	#4
koolminx Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Posts: 520	Why isn't there someone at EACH of these interviews bring up the questions you just put up for us to read? Why don't the public see that these are ordinary folks that CCW, and they don't go around shooting people and taking their $ and lives!

September 30, 2009, 09:54 PM	#6
rlong5 Member Join Date: March 20, 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 93	It's also been legal in Colorado for several years now. No problems here.

September 30, 2009, 10:19 PM	#8
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Oddly enough, here in AZ I have seen no massive outcry in the media, (Todays the day, the beer will be red with blood!), the garbage I see nationally is almost funny. The law was designed as a lawful carry of a non drinking person in a place that serves open alcohol, such as a resteraunt. Now I will bet the topless "gentlemen's clubs" are posted as of today!

October 1, 2009, 03:59 PM	#10
Yankee Traveler Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2008 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 265	The NRA has been aiding in the enactment of rational laws. The Irrationals are pushing back...

October 4, 2009, 01:13 PM	#12
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Lessee, 4 days, and no massive shootouts....

October 8, 2009, 12:54 PM	#13
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	The only reservation I have (and I'm both an AZ resident and CCW holder) is that someone who is a CCW holder is going to have a momentary lapse of judgement (it could happen to anyone), decide he can "handle" a few drinks (with the susequent reduction in inhibitions), get into a scuffle in a bar and end up shooting someone. We all know what the liberal media will do with THAT.

October 8, 2009, 02:28 PM	#14
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	If he knows the law, then he will know he is now breaking the law and subject to all kinds of wonderful penalties.

October 9, 2009, 01:13 AM	#16
TUNNUG Member Join Date: February 28, 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 16	The NRA has been aiding in the enactment of rational laws. (quote) Actually, the NRA stepped in and changed the bill to allow only CCW holders and not just anyone open carrying. The bill was aimed at allowing someone who wants to go eat at a restaurant that serves alcohol without having to leave his gun in the car, like how it was before the passing of this bill. Arizona Citizens Defense League (AZCDL) is the grassroots organization that is the originator of this bill and others that have been passed recently, in a lot of instances the NRA has stepped in and either changed or took credit for the bills. AZCDL works with the NRA but it is an organization born in and for Arizona, they follow the template started in Virginia CDL. I believe credit needs to go where it's due.

October 9, 2009, 01:13 PM	#17
OPC Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2007 Posts: 180	I'd love to start a running list of restaurants that have opted to post the 'no firearms' signs. I haven't eaten out much, but have already noticed the sign at a couple of places I will no longer be frequenting: Chipotle (Mexican fast-food chain) Crave (Tempe area bar & grill on Mill Ave) Any others? __________________ *José* Last edited by OPC; October 9, 2009 at 01:26 PM. Reason: typo

October 9, 2009, 01:22 PM	#18
SteelJM1 Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 496	Pretty much eeeevvvery bar down Congress, 4th ave, and university in toosawn.

October 21, 2009, 02:49 AM	#19
Icanseeyourbits Junior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 5	Is it a bar that serves food, or a restaurant that serves alcohol?