March 3, 2008, 07:19 PM | #51 |
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GEEEEEEEEZ! Why make it so complicated!! It's all common sense!! Hit your target and make sure the BG doesn't! Practice often with your weapon of choice so you know it's capabilities and limitations.
Move on or off the X, scenario's, and such is just filler for trainers to enhance their income. |
March 3, 2008, 11:24 PM | #52 | |
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“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides |
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March 4, 2008, 12:18 AM | #53 | |
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"Maybe" you don't need a gun...."maybe" you don't need hand to hand skills....."maybe" they just need a hug. The fight will be what the fight will be......and "maybe" there won't even be one. The adversary dictates the dynamics of the encounter......or "maybe" they won't. I do not know about any of you, but I will not gamble the lives of my beautiful wife, two beautiful daughters, or my son on "maybe."
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"Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts |
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March 4, 2008, 12:31 AM | #54 | |
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March 4, 2008, 12:34 AM | #55 | |
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"Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts |
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March 4, 2008, 12:36 AM | #56 | ||
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Yet, "common sense is not common." Quote:
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"Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts |
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March 4, 2008, 03:01 PM | #57 | |
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March 4, 2008, 03:36 PM | #58 | |
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March 6, 2008, 12:42 AM | #59 | |
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As we see in this thread and many of the recent threads, there is a huge number of people that still look at their gun as a talisman. They own it....they shoot it....what else is there? I have trained with hundreds and hundreds of people that were at their very first course. Out of all that I spoke with, there was the very same reaction to their first course. They simply could not believe how much that they did not know. They may have been shooting and carrying for decades but they acknowledge that "they did not know what they did not know." Out of all of the people that I have talked to, I never met one that did not see the benefit of a quality training course. A gun is just a tool.....you are the weapon. Owning a tool does not make you a weapon.....it makes you a tool owner.
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"Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts |
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March 6, 2008, 07:57 PM | #60 |
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Owning a weapon and not practicing regularly makes you a tool! Common sense is the rule! Wasting $$$$ on unnecessary training makes you a fool.
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March 6, 2008, 09:40 PM | #61 | ||
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On truly serious note, I don't pretend for one second that I have expertise or even personal experience in the area of moving of the X, moving for cover or standing one's ground. But here's a very interesting article written by Paul Howe of Delta "Blackhawk Down" fame. Check out his theories on "Training for the real fight". http://www.combatshootingandtactics....eRealFight.pdf I found the whole read very very interesting, but for his specific thoughts on using cover and shooting on the move, scroll down to "the fight and setting up your opponents" section. I'd love to hear your, the professionals that is, thoughts on what Mr. Howe writes. Last edited by vox rationis; March 6, 2008 at 10:18 PM. |
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March 6, 2008, 11:06 PM | #62 | ||
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Let's not forget the context of the situations when we are recommending tactics. And god forbid, let's not let "past technique limitations" dictate our tactics. Quote:
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March 7, 2008, 12:09 AM | #63 | |
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Paul Howe of Delta "Blackhawk Down" fame has the actual experiences of being ambushed, taking deadly fire, casualties, being outnumbered, on the run and fighting under totally 'reactive' and changing situations. He knows what's up.
Like Matthew Temkin said: Quote:
Anyone that would opt for 'stand and deliver' - except in the most dire and uncompromising circumstances - is a fool. Period. A ¼" of muzzle deviation off target moves the POI 12" at 15ft. A moving target is harder to hit. So, move! Bottom line........It's about surviving. Pay attention. Don't freeze. Whenever possible, always move when under an up-close attack. .
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March 7, 2008, 12:44 AM | #64 |
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Yes, but in that article Mr.Howe is warning against movement.
I think this is because his experience is military and not law enforcement/civilian. |
March 7, 2008, 06:36 AM | #65 | |
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Here we have a difference of sampling between gunfights and shootings. You are referring to gunfights and so have introduced a significant bias into the interpretation to support your conclusion that it is more important to neutralize the threat instead of moving. Many gunfights NEVER become gunfights and simply remain as shootings because people didn't stand around trying to neutralize the threat. They move off the X and moved through the rest of the alphabet to safety. If your sampling is of gunfights, then you have missed a huge body of data on how people avoided being shot or killed because you haven't looked at the data on folks who didn't return fire and egressed to safety. I do agree with you, however. If you are going to stand and fight, then you darned well better neutral the threat ASAP. |
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March 7, 2008, 09:29 AM | #66 | |
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This is exactly where I get my information from.....listening to the guys that have been in numerous gunfights....both in combat and on the streets. I know a bunch of guys that have dominated from stand and deliver. I also know a bunch of guys that reacted.....moved and shot....and won. Proactive or reactive, that is what it all comes down to. "What is your position in the reactionary curve?"
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March 7, 2008, 08:44 PM | #67 | |
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I think that Mr. Howe was making the point that when you need to move to get cover, you need to do it as fast as you can and you don't have time to shoot, and that when you have to shoot you have to be as accurate as you can so you don't want to do it on the move. And as Mr. Howe writes, he "never found an in between" where one can shoot on the move; either you are moving with speed and purpose, or you are shooting with accuracy (and speed if you are good), as you cannot do either well at the same time. SweatnBullets I understand what you mean when you say that Mr. Howe's comments make more contextual sense from the point of view of a [para] military agent engaging a [para] military/terrorist enemy at more extended distances. Being confronted face to face in a parking lot by a parasite of society wishing to victimize you is a scenario not really covered in Mr. Howe's great article. So in a face to face like that, where avoidance and tactical maneuvering has for whatever reason been made moot, the decision to make is still: stand and deliver or move of the X as you draw etc. So, it would appear that I haven't really added anything to this discussion But if the bad guy is shooting at you from a longer distance, moving with swiftness out of the kill zone, to cover, and then attempting to decisively engage, would seem to make a lot of sense. |
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March 8, 2008, 01:02 AM | #68 | |||
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March 8, 2008, 10:17 AM | #69 | |
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Movement off the X - the kill zone - is meant to make oneself a difficult target...to 'not' get shot. Most movement has the common purpose of seeking cover. Being shot at – with real bullets - is a great motivator to move yo ass and not stand and deliver. I believe a good part of SD training should be move-draw-shoot. Fast or slow, just move. Hit or miss, just shoot. .
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March 8, 2008, 10:30 AM | #70 | |
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And a big hello to you, SNB.
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A 'fair gunfight' is an oxymoron and High Noon was just a movie. :) Move off the X.... .
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March 8, 2008, 10:51 AM | #71 | |
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Reminds me of a professor who taught business, but had never been in business. Where's the credibility of his 'knowledge'. Hearsay? Must I have faith in his word? A gunfight isn't a quick draw contest. Nor is it decided by who 'hits their target first'. Many, many people have been hit first and proceeded to eliminate the attacker. Me being one of them. But that's not my point. My point is 'surviving' an attack and step one is to move out of the kill zone – to move off the X. A moving target is a hard to hit target. The worst part of your inexperienced advice and 'booklearning' is that some average gun owner might be led to believe in 'stand and deliver' over moving out of the line of fire. That is a tragedy waiting to happen and that's on you. .
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First off.....'she' is a weapon, not a girlfriend; a genderless, inanimate mechanism designed to mete out mayhem in life threatening situations. |
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March 8, 2008, 12:25 PM | #72 | ||||
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Additionally, Military, Law Enforcement and Civilian shootings are three totally different situations, each having its own unique settting, requirements and solutions. If you don't accept that, you are ignoring reality. Quote:
Additionally, one person surviving gunfight is neither a gunfighter, nor a qualified expert. They are a survivor. Quote:
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The worst part of your inexperienced post is that you have the gaul to launch a personal attack without even reading the previous posts. Otherwise you would have known what my background is, where the data comes from, what my position is etc. You really should refrain from attacking the messenger when you can't attack the message. Makes you look like a Democrat. I essence I guess your position is: "I have survived a gunfight. Therefore I am an expert in gunfighting. Even though in the majority of civilian cases the person who hits the target first wins, that isn't what is important. In spite of the fact that most people don't move off of the X and still prevail, moving off of the X is the most important thing to do. While removing the threat is the only guaranteed way to survive, I advise you to move and not remove the threat. Don't worry about what other civilians have done that have survived, just listen to me, because I survived." Is that correct? |
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March 8, 2008, 12:35 PM | #73 |
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Lurper,
We don't always agree on this stuff, but I do have to give you credit for making me look at things on a "deeper" level. While I still don't 100% agree with your stance, IMO there are times for stand and deliver and there are times for seeking cover. Everything in between is a judgement call based on training and experience that can only be made by the individual in the engagement. |
March 8, 2008, 01:11 PM | #74 | |
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TY
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March 8, 2008, 01:15 PM | #75 | |
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Exactly, and that is what is missed by many. |
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