30.07 signs appear in TX

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Watching reports that 30.07 signs are appearing at the major supermarket chain in TX - HEB.

That bans open carry. They did not ban concealed carry as that takes a different sign, as far as I know. It is a blessing that there is not one sign that bans all as then the stores would have went for that and we would have suffered a tremendous loss of rights.

That was the risk of OC and those in the fight knew that and avoided that disaster.

If you are going to post that you will now not go to HEB - let's avoid the obvious rant and threats.

[Kosh75287]

They've lost MY business...

[kilimanjaro]

Wonder if those idiots carrying AR15s around grocery stores even consider that they are responsible for such bans?

[pnac]

I'm a big supporter of the 2ndA and of concealed carry, and open carry most of the time. But even I would be a little wary of strangers walking around the grocery store with AR15's. A little consideration would go a long way.

[ms6852]

I believe in 2nd amendment whole heartedly, but people need to learn restraint, just because it's your right does not mean that you have to shove it down someone's throat because they disagree with you. Respect is what we need to give in order to receive.

As a lincensed carrier I would feel very uncomfortable shopping when someone else is carrying rifles or AR15's. I feel that if they have to go to such extremes to prove their points, that they don't care about anyone else,just themselves.

I believe that it is what causes an uphill battle for gun rights all the time.

[FITASC]

Just because something is/was legal doesn't always make it the right thing to do. As mentioned, the yahoos who carry an AR into a store are the face of all of us when it comes to anti gun legislation. The "silent majority" needs to start speaking up before more losses start to accumulate.

[HPmatt]

The 30.06 sign would prohibit concealed carry. See those at Whole Foods. Of course if you are concealed who would know?

Glad we can now OC in Texas - but w a CHL - finally not an issue in summer and when driving across the South.

[ms6852]

The only thing I like about open carry is, should I accidentally print or expose my
Gun I won't get in trouble.

[steve4102]

Actually a simple sign stating, "No Open Firearms", bans open carry and a simple sign stating "No Guns Allowed" bans both open and concealed, yes.

It is a blessing that there is not one sign that bans all as then the stores would have went for that and we would have suffered a tremendous loss of rights.

So what rights are you loosing by a business owner exercising their's and posting that they do not wish firearms to be carried in their place of business.

You never had a "right" to carry in their place of business. You may have been given permission, but you never had or will have a "Right" to carry on private property.

[JohnKSa]

Actually a simple sign stating, "No Open Firearms", bans open carry and a simple sign stating "No Guns Allowed" bans both open and concealed, yes.

Not in TX. Where legal, a 30.06 sign is required to ban concealed carry and a 30.07 sign is required to ban open carry. The signs are named after the sections in the TX penal code that define them. The signs are defined in subsections 06 and 07 of section 30 which deals with Burglary and Criminal Trespass.

A property owner may also ban concealed or open carry by verbally notifying persons coming on to the property, or by handing out cards with the 30.06 and/or 30.07 sign text written on them.

[steve4102]

Not in TX. Where legal, a 30.06 sign is required to ban concealed carry and a 30.07 sign is required to ban open carry.

Not exactly.

A "Compliant" sign is required only for the sign to have "Force of Law".

A Non-Compliant sign still conveys the message, the wishes of the property owner and Bans Firearms even without the force of law attached.

The only difference is what you will be charged with when the cops so up.

[JohnKSa]

A Non-Compliant sign still conveys the message, the wishes of the property owner...

This part is correct.

...and Bans Firearms even without the force of law.

I'm not so sure about this part--except that I do agree that whatever a non-compliant sign is or is not, it is certainly without the force of law.

I've never spent much time thinking about whether or not a ban that is not enforceable and has no force of law behind it is really a ban, and I don't believe I'm going to start now.

[steve4102]

^^

From your own words in above post.

A property owner may also ban concealed or open carry by verbally notifying persons coming on to the property,

You admit that that a Property owner can ban Firearms verbally, yet you are confused if a sign that does not carry the force of law constitutes a Ban?

[JohnKSa]

You admit that that a Property owner can ban Firearms verbally...

TX law explicitly spells out the three ways a property owner can ban handgun carry on his property.

• Post a compliant sign. The size of the letters, the location of the sign and the specific wording of the sign are defined by law.
• Notify a person verbally. There is no legal definition of how this must be carried out so the property owner can choose the wording he/she prefers.
• Hand a person a compliant card. The specific wording on the card is defined by law.

Any of these actions (including the verbal warning) has the force of law. There is no other way provided under TX law for a property owner to ban the carry of handguns.

...yet you are confused if a sign that does not carry the force of law constitutes a Ban?

Nope, not confused. A verbal notification constitutes a ban. A compliant sign constitutes a ban. A printed card handed to a person constitutes a ban. A non-compliant sign may convey the property owner's wishes but it doesn't ban anything.

I fervently wish that people wouldn't text on their cellphones while driving, but even if I manage to convey my wishes to those who do via hand gestures, shouted imprecations or witty bumper stickers, they won't be banned from continuing their actions. Unfortunately my efforts have no weight of law and therefore the texters are free to continue to weave their way haphazardly along the highway.

[steve4102]

A non-compliant sign may convey the property owner's wishes but it doesn't ban anything.

Sure it does.

It bans firearms from the property owners premises. A total and complete Ban.

The sign may not carry some misdemeanor charges associated with a Compliant sign, but it is a total and complete Ban just the same and violating that sign can get you removed from the premises.

Being removed for disobeying a sign, is a ban.

Sign on the door says, "No Skate Boards Allowed". No force of Law attached.

Ya ride in on a "Skate Board", ya get tossed out the door.

Guess what, the sign banned Skate Boards even without the force of law.

[JohnKSa]

Ya ride in on a "Skate Board", ya get tossed out the door.

To be more accurate, if you ride in on a skate board you will be asked to leave. The sign didn't legally prevent you from coming in, and it won't legally make you leave because it has no weight of law. HOWEVER, once you are asked to leave, you are now trespassing and you are obligated to leave. It's the request to leave that creates the obligation to leave, not the sign itself.

It's actually pretty similar in one small way to the situation under discussion.

...violating that sign can get you removed from the premises.

No, it can not. A non-compliant sign has no weight of law and a TX handgun license holder has no obligation to avoid premises or leave premises so posted. A licensee can NOT legally be removed from the premises purely on the basis of a non-compliant sign.

In the case where a non-compliant sign is posted, the owner, or the owner's agent would have to verbally notify the licensee to leave in order to create any obligation on the part of the licensee.

Being removed for disobeying a sign, is a ban.

Well, first of all, a licensee will not be removed for solely for disregarding a non-compliant sign. They would have to be verbally notified which is a compliant means of removing/barring a licensee from carrying on the premises.

Second, it's not quite accurate to imply that ignoring a non-compliant sign constitutes disobedience. It would be just as accurate to say that a person who loves Jesus is "disobeying" a bumper sticker that instructs him or her to honk if he loves Jesus. A non-compliant sign has just as much legal weight as the bumper sticker.

The obligation to leave (or avoid) the premises only comes if the licensee is notified by one of the means defined in TX law.

So IF you ever move to TX, and IF you ever own a business here, and IF you ever wish to ban handguns in that business, you will have a lot more luck in your endeavor if you read the 30.06 & 30.07 sections of the TX Penal Code and follow the prescribed methodology for doing so.

You will find that posting typical "No Guns" signs will have no effect as the TX handgun license class teaches (and TX law makes it clear) that they are not an effective means of notifying handgun license holders not to carry on the premises.

[gyvel]

Wonder if those idiots carrying AR15s around grocery stores even consider that they are responsible for such bans?

There was NO common sense exercised here. I stated in another thread that this just leaves a very sour taste in Mr. & Mrs. Average Americans' mouths, whether they are pro gun or not.

No wonder the stores are prohibiting open display of firearms. It may be legal, but it makes people uneasy (including me) to see a bunch of yahoo morons walking around with AR15s. It's downright embarrassing and makes me ashamed of some of our so-called 2A proponents.

[steve4102]

So IF you ever move to TX, and IF you ever own a business here, and IF you ever wish to ban handguns in that business, you will have a lot more luck in your endeavor if you read the 30.06 & 30.07 sections of the TX Penal Code and follow the prescribed methodology for doing so.

Does not matter if in Texas or any of the other 50 States. If I own a business and I post a no firearms sign (any sign) and someone violates my wishes by crossing it, they will get tossed out the door. No cops, no force of law, no compliant sign, just me kicking that person out the door.

...and no you do not have a "Right" to carry on private property, you may be given permission, but you cannot lose what you never had.

[Branko]

The way I see it, you don't need to kick them out, the moment you tell them that guns are not allowed, if they don't go out they're violating the law; the sign is precisely defined so someone can't abuse the spirit of the law (eg. I make a "no guns" sign in small letters in a position which isn't readily visible, and then call the police to arrest people violating a ban which wasn't fairly advertized).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Tossed out the door. I suggest that you ask them to leave. If 'tossed' suggests physical force (or just blustering) - that would be quite illegal.

TX, as John pointed out, is very specific. Making up your own interpretations is nice but rather solipsistic.

[steve4102]

Very specific only if the business owner wishes to press charges or get the police involved.

[JohnKSa]

If I own a business and I post a no firearms sign (any sign) and someone violates my wishes by crossing it, they will get tossed out the door.

If you lay hands on someone who hasn't broken any laws and "toss them out the door" of a property open to the public, you will likely end up in courts. Criminal court first and civil court next.

Even with a legally compliant sign posted, the owner of property open to the public has no right to do anything other than ask the person to leave and/or call the police. If he chooses to call the police the trespasser may be cited and fined when the police arrive.

Without a legally compliant sign posted the property owner has exactly the same rights. He may ask the person to leave and/or call the police. The difference is that when the police arrive the person will not be cited since they are not violating any laws unless he gave them verbal notice that no guns were allowed as opposed to just asking them to leave. By the way, this scenario is exactly the same as not posting a sign at all--which tells you how worthwhile it is to post a non-compliant sign in TX.

[psyfly]

Reference the original post:

I've been in three (maybe four?) HEB stores since I read the OP and I have yet to see a 30-07 sign.

Actually, I've not yet seen one anywhere.

Is there a link to the reports you've been watching, Glenn?

Eh, never mind. I had time to do a little websearch-fu on my own and I see what's out there.

[chimo]

I've always found it interesting how some people are more afraid of the firearm that they and all the honest world can see...and not those that are hidden away.

[TXAZ]

I'll still go to HEB. Good store and people. Accidental printing / sight is the only OC advantage to me.
Otherwise it's just a "Mr. Bad guy shoot me first" request.