max loads for 44 pistol conversions

[georgiacatweazle]

I was thinking about buying a 1858 pistol and a 45LC conversion cylinder.
I'm wondering whether factory modern ammunition can be fired through it or do you have to load lower pressures ?
For example can I reload 45LC to max specs or run "cowboy" only charges ?

[Bishop Creek]

As is stated on the Kirst website:

"Kirst Cartridge Konverters™ are rated "For Black Powder or equivalent loads only," which includes the smokeless, light target loads used in Cowboy Action Shooting."

The conversion cylinders, including Kirst and those sold by Howell and Taylors are made with very strong steel, the problem is the replica cap and ball revolvers aren't.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Here is the pamphlet that came with one of my Taylors/R&D cylinders. You will note that it states that the cylinder is good for Smokeless 'Cowboy Ammunition'. Unfortunately, there are no SAAMI specs for Cowboy Ammunition, and the data given, just velocity, is meaningless. Pressure is the important consideration, and velocity is not a good enough indicator of pressure.

But any commercial Cowboy Ammo that you buy will be fine in any of these cylinders. Do not attempt to fire hot ammo, such as the stuff you find in the Ruger Only section of handbooks, in these cylinders. If you have a manual that lists 'cowboy' recipes, that will be good too. My old Speer #13 lists some cowboy recipes, and the Alliant website lists some Cowboy data too.

[georgiacatweazle]

cool thanks for the info

[45 Dragoon]

I differ with the thoughts of some here. The guns are a fine support system for conversion cylinders. Any norm (not plus P or Ruger only loads) loads will be fine and your revolver will last if it is tight. If it's an open top, the arbor situation has to be addressed if you expect it to last. Smokless ammo is harder on a gun than bp and as such, the gun must be set to tighter tolerances. The looser the gun, the quicker it will "wear out".
The point I'm trying to make is, you don't have to shoot " weenie" loads. I certainly don't! I load to the upper end of the tables and the Dragoons think it's normal and my Pietta'60 Army is quite a hoot. I load one kind of ammo for all my 45s (which is all I have!).

They (my coversions) all maintain their tolerances and they are all permanent conversions. I dont shoot blk.powder.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[bedbugbilly]

The one question I have is "why are you buying a '58 and conversion cylinder?"

Are you going to shoot both C & B and 45 Long?

If all you are going to do is shoot 45 Long or Schofield, you'd be better off I would think to buy a "conversion" model. The bores will be for standard 45 dimension bullets and you won't have to worry about having to use "heeled". If you want the option to shoot both C & B and 45 cartridge - then I can see going the route of a C & B plus the conversion cylinder..

[45 Dragoon]

Wow Billy haven't you heard? The barrel is correct for the 45 C cartridge!! The 44 Remie is the perfect drop cylinder gun!!
It's the 36 you have a problem with. Lol

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[freedom475]

The cylinders strength specs has nothing to do with pressure.! The guns cannot take the forces generated if a heavy bullet is driven to over 1,000fps for very many shots.

The cylinders come with velocity spec of 1000fps because (SAMMI) pressure can easily be held by the cylinders. I believe the cylinders (kirst 5 shot) are tested to 35K.

Case Head Thrust...is what will break the old C&B's. And the simple fact that the bullet going down the barrel is trying to pull your revolver in half. Case Head Thrust is velocity and bullet weight....NOT pressure. This is part of the reason that Lead cast bullets are suggested....This is still a Case Head Thrust issue because it is harder to compress copper into the forcing cone.

The 45acp runs just fine at 21,000+PSI out of a conversion safely and the cylinders are made for the 45acp..but it only reaches 800 or 900fps+/- with a 230gr bullet. ..If you run a big cased 45colt to 21,000+ you can and will easily exceed 1000fps, even with a big 300gr bullet. And that will tear your revolver apart!

So while the ACP runs just fine 21k, the 45c will damage your gun at this pressure...Because of Velocity.

The conversion cylinders are short so they limit the size of bullet you can really use. One of my personal favorite loads is the .451 XTP 230HP at about 800fps out of an old 5 shot Kirst ...yeah it's jacketed, but the .451 diameter keeps things safe. I have over 1,000 of them down the tube and my Remington is still shooting just fine.

But truthfully the load I shoot most out of my 45Colt conversion is a little 160gr BigLube EPPUG bullet over 15gr 2fOldeEynsford with a 38special case of cream of wheat in the case.....This load shoots GREAT and hits spot on with my cap&ball cylinders...and I don't need earplugs to shoot a rabbit or coyote when i'm out riding.

[rodwhaincamo]

Any idea what kind of ballistics you get with that 15 grn load and 160 grn bullet?

[freedom475]

You know, I'm not sure of the velocity...probly not much LOL...I'll run a couple over the Chrono tomorrow when it gets light. I did shoot a few at a basketball sized rock at around 200yrds the other day and hit about 4 feet low with the first shot and the next one was about a foot high...I did go look at the rock.

Update. Ok, So I ran my 45 Colt plinking load for the conversion over the chrono this morning...

15gr 2f OE + a 38Special case of COW...behind a 45cal 155gr EPPUG bullet.

Yields 765 fps ave. out of my Pietta Remington....This is pretty impressive really since I am using such a small powder charger.

So much fun to shoot too!!!!

[rodwhaincamo]

I wouldn't expect much either. Maybe 175-200 ft/lbs.

I have a 170 grn bullet I load with 30 grns of 3F Olde E/Triple 7 and estimate 350-400 ft/lbs judging by various chronograph results I've seen.

There's a fellow with a chronograph who's willing to test my loads and bullets across his chronograph for me. I weighed my charges to be more accurate. I haven't shipped out the bullets yet though.

[georgiacatweazle]

The main reason I want a conversion is that apart from the Cimaron Outlaw, I don't like the look of any 45LC out there except for the Ruger Alaskan etc.
So apart from the 1858, maybe a Colt Walker, that'll take 450 foot pounds of black powder.

[freedom475]

Energy calculations mean absolutely NOTHING ..It is just another number. The calculation squares velocity....??? so velocity is the that important??? NOT really except to level trajectory.

This thread got me curious so I just tried 40g of 2f OE black powder behind the little 155 EPPUG, out of the 45colt conversion over the Chrono...1205fps!!!! LOL wow.. FWIW this drives energy from 200 ft/lbs of the 15gr load all the way to 500 ft/lbs!!!!!

[rodwhaincamo]

I see velocity as important, along with the mass, as it gives an idea of penetration abilities.

Velocity will also dictate whether or not my lead projectile can expand without hitting bone.

The energy figure may not necessarily mean much, but I've often considered it a way to compare differing weight projectiles to determine penetration capabilities in like type bullets. The lighter projectile will need a higher velocity to penetrate as far.

[Newtire]

Makes me wonder about load limits for a Ruger Old Army. If it’s a matter of being careful not to shoot loads that will put undue stress on the frame, causing it to stretch, which is the weaker of the two-the Ruger Old Army frame or the conversion cylinder? I’ve heard stories on how the ROA frame is the same strength as the Ruger Super Blackhawk. For one thing, I don’t know if the rumor is true about the ROA frame being the same as the Super Blackhawk stregthwise. Does anyone know if this is true or not? If it is true, wouldn’t it also be true then that you would only be limited by the strength of the cylinder?

[stinkeypete]

So many wrong posts.
Follow the recommendations of the cylinder manufacturer.

You’re already pushing your luck with a cylinder conversion. Too many unknowns.

Pressure is Pounds per Square Inch. It’s the thing that blows the cylinder up.

This rig is intended for Plinking style loads, not hammer of Thor elk hunting.

Flat trajectory is a non-issue in handguns until you’re a silhouette competition shooter banging steel at 100,200,300 yards.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by stinkeypete

So many wrong posts.
Follow the recommendations of the cylinder manufacturer.

You’re already pushing your luck with a cylinder conversion. Too many unknowns.

Pressure is Pounds per Square Inch. It’s the thing that blows the cylinder up.

This rig is intended for Plinking style loads, not hammer of Thor elk hunting.

Flat trajectory is a non-issue in handguns until you’re a silhouette competition shooter banging steel at 100,200,300 yards.

The cylinder is made from tool steel. It's not going to blow up unless you overload it to the point a modern gun would blow up. The weak point is the soft frame but if Dragoon says it will handle it it will handle it.

[45 Dragoon]

Hawg is correct!
We've learned a lot in almost 7 yrs!! Lol
The ROA is an accurate Beast!! It and the horse pistols and belt pistols are great platforms for Kirst conversions!!
No need to worry about shooting tier 1 loads.

Mike