Powder measures

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by CLYA

I use a RCBS ChargeMaster 1500, and it looks nothing like the problematic ChargeMaster shown in the above pics, with embedded powder scaling. Mine is perfectly clean. I do dump remaining powder, everytime I use it. It's had so many different brands of powder through it, that I no longer keep a mental track. It's all on paper, when needed.

As to accuracy, it's gets right down, to where my Redding beam scale does, also comparing to two other electronic scales I have. If it didn't, I wouldn't be using it.

Just another issue all of them have. JM made a nice video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmxBSOOL7Ks


The algorithm is so retarded that it back paddles instead of being honest and letting the user know that the charge is actually over-trickled.

Try it yourself.

My 1500 is basically +-0.2gr all the time. That is not acceptable. My Redding is 0.02gr with most powders. Verified with my $1,500 lab grade certified and calibrated balance.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

the Redding uses the same rotating cylinder with a adjustable chamber design as the Hornady, RCBS, Frankford Aresenal, Culver, Harrel, and Lee Perfect. Any of them is more accurate on ball and flake than they are with stick but if you are being truthful then you have the only mechanical measure in the world that is that is that is more accurate than .1 for repeated charges

Do you own a Redding measure? Do you own a CERTIFIED lab balance that goes down to 0.001gr to prove your claim?

[CLYA]

McCarthy, why does your little used 1500, look like a moisture ridden grain silo? No, I won't be bothered to purchase a $1500 lab certified balance. I do believe you misrepresented the ChargeMaster 1500, with those photos of supposable light use.

[mikld]

Yeah, I expected some vitriol from Lee Haters, so I gotta defend my statement. The Lee PPM is made from modern tools, using modern methods (I remember when Chevy came out with a fiberglass car and all the nay-sayers jumped on that with both feet. They could not understand modern materials replacing iron/steel. Same with reloading equipment. Mostly ignorance). My CH powder measure (IIRC $120.00) was rated very highly on the LASC reloading/casting site and the Lee placed third in accuracy, ease of use, and repeatability. My CH will leak WC820 and AA9, very fine ball powders, just like the Lee PPM and my Little Dandy and Pacific Pistol Powder Measure (and I'm sure others do to). I use IMR 4064 for a couple of my rifles and it won't consistently meter in either of my "good" powder measures and the consistency is very close across the board, but my Lee is slightly ahead of my C-H when using W231. Like any mass produced product, some may be "rough" but Lee is no more sloppy than many other manufacturers and I have purchased RCBS tools that needed to go back. Lee advertises as "the leading innovator" for reloading equipment and proves it by producing new innovative equipment at sane prices (when was the last time any of the other manufacturers come up with a truly "new" tool?).

There's a condition I call "Tool Snobbery". Having spent my last 25 Years as a heavy equipment mechanic/electrician with a large city department of water and power I have witnessed this first hand. A majority of these snobs purchase tools not by how good they work but copy what their favorite TV motorcycle builder or NASCAR pit crew uses. They buy because of cost too ("if it costs the most, it's the best, right?"). Some bought tools because of the name (Snap-On, MAC, Matco, etc.) to make them seem more "professional". And a couple bought tools from the tool man with the "Coolest Truck". And some have a superior attitude about their choice ("If it ain't Snap-On [or MAC, or Matco, etc.] it's junk!").

I see the same in reloading tools; Lee Haters badmouth the products because they cost less ("if it don't cost much, it can't be any good, right?"), they use modern materials (remember when Glock came to the US? "UGH! Plastic guns will never work"), using modern manufacturing techniques (remember when Bill Ruger stunned the firearm industry with stamped steel parts and investment casting?) and many are "too smart" to read instructions.

I can think for myself and really don't care what another reloader uses, but I do object to the "tool snobs" telling new reloaders Lee is junk, to run from it and the old, tired saw "buy once, cry once" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, which is BS as most of the reloaders I know will buy new stuff "just because"). On several occasions I have read how "bad" a Lee tool is and have tried to duplicate the "problem" with my Lee tool, and most often I cannot (some "reloaders" can't read instructions or as mechanically inclined as a rock).

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes, but both sides of the story need to be presented to new reloaders so they can make up their own mind with facts, not hearsay or tired old opinions. It's too bad, but I think this post will gather more Lee Hater "stuff"...

[CLYA]

It's too bad, but I think this post will gather more Lee Hater "stuff"...

I liked the post. I worked in a large machine shop, and know what you're talking about. I think Lee is very cost effective, and can do a decent job, especially for someone that's not ready to throw mega bucks into reloading. At least not for a while. I'm still not going to get a $1500 weight scale though, even though I'm way over that, on my present Dillon stuff.

[Rifletom]

mikld, spot on post. I have some Lee handloading things; case trimmers, FCCD's etc.
If Lee stuff was as horrible as some "think", Lee would have been gone long ago.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by mikld

Yeah, I expected some vitriol from Lee Haters, so I gotta defend my statement. The Lee PPM is made from modern tools, using modern methods (I remember when Chevy came out with a fiberglass car and all the nay-sayers jumped on that with both feet. They could not understand modern materials replacing iron/steel. Same with reloading equipment. Mostly ignorance). My CH powder measure (IIRC $120.00) was rated very highly on the LASC reloading/casting site and the Lee placed third in accuracy, ease of use, and repeatability. My CH will leak WC820 and AA9, very fine ball powders, just like the Lee PPM and my Little Dandy and Pacific Pistol Powder Measure (and I'm sure others do to). I use IMR 4064 for a couple of my rifles and it won't consistently meter in either of my "good" powder measures and the consistency is very close across the board, but my Lee is slightly ahead of my C-H when using W231. Like any mass produced product, some may be "rough" but Lee is no more sloppy than many other manufacturers and I have purchased RCBS tools that needed to go back. Lee advertises as "the leading innovator" for reloading equipment and proves it by producing new innovative equipment at sane prices (when was the last time any of the other manufacturers come up with a truly "new" tool?).

There's a condition I call "Tool Snobbery". Having spent my last 25 Years as a heavy equipment mechanic/electrician with a large city department of water and power I have witnessed this first hand. A majority of these snobs purchase tools not by how good they work but copy what their favorite TV motorcycle builder or NASCAR pit crew uses. They buy because of cost too ("if it costs the most, it's the best, right?"). Some bought tools because of the name (Snap-On, MAC, Matco, etc.) to make them seem more "professional". And a couple bought tools from the tool man with the "Coolest Truck". And some have a superior attitude about their choice ("If it ain't Snap-On [or MAC, or Matco, etc.] it's junk!").

I see the same in reloading tools; Lee Haters badmouth the products because they cost less ("if it don't cost much, it can't be any good, right?"), they use modern materials (remember when Glock came to the US? "UGH! Plastic guns will never work"), using modern manufacturing techniques (remember when Bill Ruger stunned the firearm industry with stamped steel parts and investment casting?) and many are "too smart" to read instructions.

I can think for myself and really don't care what another reloader uses, but I do object to the "tool snobs" telling new reloaders Lee is junk, to run from it and the old, tired saw "buy once, cry once" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, which is BS as most of the reloaders I know will buy new stuff "just because"). On several occasions I have read how "bad" a Lee tool is and have tried to duplicate the "problem" with my Lee tool, and most often I cannot (some "reloaders" can't read instructions or as mechanically inclined as a rock).

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes, but both sides of the story need to be presented to new reloaders so they can make up their own mind with facts, not hearsay or tired old opinions. It's too bad, but I think this post will gather more Lee Hater "stuff"...

1.) C-H Powder Measure Pistol $100.84, not $120.

Source: https://www.ch4d.com/products/equipm...wder-tools/502

2.) Your C-H leaks fine powder and you are sure others do to? False. My Reddings don't leak any powder. That's just one reason why to purchase QUALITY over cheap products.

3.) You spent 25 years as a heavy equipment mechanic / electrician? What has that to do with anything? I hold 3 college degrees, one in Engineering. Worked in aviation (Sikorski) and the automobile industry (Benz) in R&D. Your point?

4.) Snap-On is not a quality tool. They outsourced most to foreign countries. If you want to talk about quality tools (used in aviation for example), try HAZET or Stahlwille. Most people I know who use these brands are well beyond anything you just described. Has nothing to do with snobbery. If you would have worked on delicate equipment with Hazet you would sing another tune, but you do not have this experience, obviously.

5.) The reality is, that there are many LEE fan boys. And each and every time they try to sell LEE to beginners as a quality product and brand. That in itself is utter nonsense. Lee uses cheap materials to lower the production costs. These materials cause wide tolerances. Wider tolerances result in issues like powder leaking, and even worse: less accuracy. Lee using plastic is not innovation! It is just much cheaper than milled steel or brass. Everybody knows that.

6.) When I started reloading I was also suggested LEE from all sides. I wasted a lot of time and money, because I had to find out the hard way that Lee simply sucks. Then I replaced everything with true quality items from companies like Redding, Dillon, 21st Century Shooting, Giraud, etc. and did my own testing. Sure enough, LEE (as well as many RCBS items) didn't stand a chance. And I hope that the OP won't fall for the same path.

In my book there is only one exception why one should even consider LEE. If somebody is very low on funds with no way to make more money, lets say a vet on minimum SS. Then it makes sense. But if you have the funds, and if you value quality as well as accuracy, there are a bunch of companies that develop and manufacture MUCH better products.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by CLYA

I liked the post. I worked in a large machine shop, and know what you're talking about. I think Lee is very cost effective, and can do a decent job, especially for someone that's not ready to throw mega bucks into reloading. At least not for a while. I'm still not going to get a $1500 weight scale though, even though I'm way over that, on my present Dillon stuff.

You increase accuracy by reducing and removing variables. Consistent charges are one major variable. A proper lab grade balance (with the Omega trickler I posted on the first page) completely eliminates this variable, because you can load every single round to 0.001gr, with other words down to every single kernel.

By the way: this has nothing to do with the shooters skill level. It is simple math. Every variable that can be removed or reduced increases accuracy. Period.

Also, what I'm doing is not your average reloading, I'm also into ballistics, this is handloading on the highest level of perfection. PS: Dillons are for mass production, not perfection. I own a 550 and 1050 as well.

All that aside, in this thread's matter I used my lab grade scale to actually verify how accurate different powder dispensers and measures are. Obviously you can't do that with your a $150 electronic scale made in China, because they are not certified calibrated (in a lab), let alone measure precisely enough to begin with.

My bottom-line is, that most reloaders don't even realize how imprecise Lee products are. Most of them also don't want to hear it because they are "heavily" or at least emotionally invested in this brand, so its no surprise that they deny all criticism, even when faced by folks who have the resources to prove them wrong.

Anyways: I have made my point and it's up to the OP (and everybody else for that matter) what he wants to spend his hard earned money on.

[hounddawg]

Do you own a Redding measure? Do you own a CERTIFIED lab balance that goes down to 0.001gr to prove your claim

and exactly what "claim" did I make ? If you want to insist your Redding is can weigh to .01 grains feel free but maybe you can tell us what makes it so special because as far as I know no one else on the net is making that claim even with the 400 and 500 dollar powder throws.

Yes I have access to my brothers Sartorius Entris which we checked against my 50 year old Lyman M5 against and was within a couple of milligrams on 8 out of ten measurements. He about crapped because he has over 1500 dollars in his Autothrow and scale. The M5 I use was less than 100 on EBay and that is including the $8 webcam to prevent parallax. Granted his Autothrow can throw a charge to a kernel of Varget in less than 10 seconds and it takes me three to four times as long. I get consistent velocity SD's in the single digits which is good enough for me

you want real accuracy and speed either go with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i65asa4JgH4

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by CLYA

McCarthy, why does your little used 1500, look like a moisture ridden grain silo? No, I won't be bothered to purchase a $1500 lab certified balance. I do believe you misrepresented the ChargeMaster 1500, with those photos of supposable light use.

So you basically call me a liar?

I own the ChargeMaster, you don't. I have it still sitting here. Want more photos? It ran less than 1 pound of powder. I'm not the only one who had the plastic being chewed up. Search the web.

I have made all the stated experiences, you don't.

And you still think you know better about a product you haven't even touched yet?

Did you watch the video I just posted for you? Are you going to tell me that you also know better than Morris?

I'm sorry, but that discussion with you ends right here until you come back with actual experiences.

[hounddawg]

not sure why the comment on the RCBS, I did not mention that I own one also but I do.

maybe instead of being so hostile and attacking me you could explain why the rotating drum design on your Lyman is accurate down to .02 grains when no one else can get that style throw to get any better than .1 or .2 grains accuracy at best with similar measure which use the same design

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

and exactly what "claim" did I make ? If you want to insist your Redding is can weigh to .01 grains feel free but maybe you can tell us what makes it so special because as far as I know no one else on the net is making that claim even with the 400 and 500 dollar powder throws.

Yes I have access to my brothers Sartorius Entris which we checked against my 50 year old Lyman M5 against and was within a couple of milligrams on 8 out of ten measurements. He about crapped because he has over 1500 dollars in his Autothrow and scale. The M5 I use was less than 100 on EBay and that is including the $8 webcam to prevent parallax. Granted his Autothrow can throw a charge to a kernel of Varget in less than 10 seconds and it takes me three to four times as long. I get consistent velocity SD's in the single digits which is good enough for me

you want real accuracy and speed either go with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i65asa4JgH4

That's nothing new to me and by the way less accurate. Did you read my posts? My scale and the Omega tricker is exact to each and every single kernel. This is 100%. End of line.

Since your brother has a proper lab scale, please buy a Redding 10x and try it yourself. Buy it on Amazon, you can returned it for a full refund. You won't believe me any other way.

[Mike38]

I bought a "lightly used" Lymann 55 last year for $50. I am very pleased with it using flaked and ball powder. Haven't tried extruded powder yet. I've used charges of 1.5 grains for .32 S&WL up to 72 grains for a 7mm STW.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

not sure why the comment on the RCBS, I did not mention that I own one also but I do.

maybe instead of being so hostile and attacking me you could explain why the rotating drum design on your Lyman is accurate down to .02 grains when no one else can get that style throw to get any better than .1 or .2 grains accuracy at best with similar measure which use the same design

I'm replying to your comments. If they don't line up, I say it. Has nothing to do with "attacking". Unless you don't want to be corrected when you made false statements.

Another false statement you just made is that you now claim I'm talking about a Lyman measure. Where have I ONCE used the word Lyman? I am suggesting 2 Redding measures to the OP, and nothing else.

[603Country]

Try to calm down, McCarthy. No need to try to thumbtack your opinion on everyone’s forehead. If you need to raise a ruckus, call RCBS and fuss at them.

As for the Chargemaster, I know some serious 1000 yard guys that use them, and all I hear is happy talk. My Lyman electronic works great, though I am aware that accuracy is to 0.1 gr. I’m Ok with that. I do know one guy that loads match ammo commercially, and he uses the super accurate high dollar scale that most of us don’t need.

So...what is the fuss all about anyway? Is it anger at RCBS? Are ya just mad at everyone that doesn’t agree with what you think? Or are ya just mad?

[CLYA]

So you basically call me a liar?

I own the ChargeMaster, you don't. I have it still sitting here. Want more photos? It ran less than 1 pound of powder. I'm not the only one who had the plastic being chewed up. Search the web.

Not calling you a liar at all. I'm convinced that's your ChargeMaster, and that's how it looks. Point is, you're making it a point, as if all Chargemasters will end up that way.
While anyone can check the web, for examples like yours, the web will also prove that a vast number don't end up like yours. Never the less, mine has been used thousands of times, many different powders, and still looks shiny clean. I'm I better at maintenance? I don't know.


And yes, Dillon is for mass production. I'm well aware. I have my other machines also. Am I trying to get that exacting precision? Not anymore.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by 603Country

Try to calm down, McCarthy. No need to try to thumbtack your opinion on everyone’s forehead. If you need to raise a ruckus, call RCBS and fuss at them.

As for the Chargemaster, I know some serious 1000 yard guys that use them, and all I hear is happy talk. My Lyman electronic works great, though I am aware that accuracy is to 0.1 gr. I’m Ok with that. I do know one guy that loads match ammo commercially, and he uses the super accurate high dollar scale that most of us don’t need.

So...what is the fuss all about anyway? Is it anger at RCBS? Are ya just mad at everyone that doesn’t agree with what you think? Or are ya just mad?

It is called passion. There's more than just 'on' or 'off', 'happy' or 'mad'. I'm especially passionate when longtime reloaders keep suggesting and pushing mediocre products out of personal brand loyalty over actual experiences with better alternatives, like the suggested Redding 10X, all to a beginner (the OP) who relies on logical and verified feedback.

By the way: I was long done at post #33, but when people come back with nonsense, I might indeed refute said nonsense. Makes sense, doesn't it.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by CLYA

Not calling you a liar at all. I'm convinced that's your ChargeMaster, and that's how it looks. Point is, you're making it a point, as if all Chargemasters will end up that way.
While anyone can check the web, for examples like yours, the web will also prove that a vast number don't end up like yours. Never the less, mine has been used thousands of times, many different powders, and still looks shiny clean. I'm I better at maintenance? I don't know.


And yes, Dillon is for mass production. I'm well aware. I have my other machines also. Am I trying to get that exacting precision? Not anymore.

And that is the difference here. You are past perfection. Either way, this is well beyond what OP described. He included in his options "push button dispensers" and I obviously wanted to share my experiences, in order to prevent him from making the same.

I don't recall right now what powder I was using back then. Have well over 60 different powders, some are very reactive. It does't change the fact that the plastic being used in the Chargemaster was never intended to withstand nitro / double based gun powders. That's a total design failure right there. Why don't they use at least the same plastic that is being used for the powder containers? Those don't react, even if stored for decades.

The plastic is - as mentioned - not the only problem. As I have shown it is not accurate. Mine is in average +- 0.160gr.

It also over trickles, and then the scale paddles back. This is why so many use the McDonnals straw mod on them, which also speeds up the trickling.

[603Country]

All right, we’ll call it ‘passion’. So let’s get back to the OP and his specific need, and let’s go with MY opinion. I would suggest to the OP that he not go with an electronic thrower/trickler like my Lyman or the RCBS jus yet. Start with more basic, and cheaper, gear. And I would not suggest Lee equipment. Start with the solid basic gear, like that Lyman 55 or the comparable units from RCBS, Redding, and others. A balance scale like the RCBS 505 or 1010 would be good.

If, however, the OP wanted to spend some money, I would recommend the RCBS Chargemaster or the Lyman or Hornady equivalent. I know you had a bad experience with the RCBS unit, but there might be info on that issue that you didn’t share. Now, if I was using my Lyman unit, and in the process of using it the powder melted into the plastic, I expect that I’d be so upset that either my head or heart would explode. And I’d be on the phone to Lyman the moment I quit screaming curses and jumping up and down, and i’d expect them to replace the unit. Have you spoken with RCBS, who I know for a fact have a terrific customer service department? In my experience, they are great to talk to and work with.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by 603Country

All right, we’ll call it ‘passion’. So let’s get back to the OP and his specific need, and let’s go with MY opinion. I would suggest to the OP that he not go with an electronic thrower/trickler like my Lyman or the RCBS jus yet. Start with more basic, and cheaper, gear. And I would not suggest Lee equipment. Start with the solid basic gear, like that Lyman 55 or the comparable units from RCBS, Redding, and others. A balance scale like the RCBS 505 or 1010 would be good.

If, however, the OP wanted to spend some money, I would recommend the RCBS Chargemaster or the Lyman or Hornady equivalent. I know you had a bad experience with the RCBS unit, but there might be info on that issue that you didn’t share. Now, if I was using my Lyman unit, and in the process of using it the powder melted into the plastic, I expect that I’d be so upset that either my head or heart would explode. And I’d be on the phone to Lyman the moment I quit screaming curses and jumping up and down, and i’d expect them to replace the unit. Have you spoken with RCBS, who I know for a fact have a terrific customer service department? In my experience, they are great to talk to and work with.

I sent them an email, got a reply with questions, answered the questions but got no response at all, sent a reminder with photos, and never heard back. I assume they didn't care much because I was out of the warranty time frame. Back in the day I had bought a lot of equipment at once, including the Chargemaster, and used my other measures for a while before I even unboxed the RCBS.

I'm well past the point of disappointment. This product doesn't fulfill my minimum requirements for what it is, out of several reasons.

If I'd ever give one of these mainstream dispensers a try again, I would go with the Lyman. That being said, they are also made in China, possibly in the same plant since they share some similarities.

I agree on the beam scale, they are indeed much better than comparable $100 electronic scales.

[603Country]

I just communicated with a professional commercial reloader. He has quite a few Chargemasters for his business, and likes them a lot. However, he said that some double based flake powders will, over time (weeks), attack the plastic and be very tough to remove. Single based extruded powders seem to not have that problem.

Probably I’d have the same problem with the Lyman, but I never leave powder in it for more than 3 or 4 days.

Good to know...

[Rifletom]

Hmm. I am under the impression that RCBS has lifetime warranty on all their products.
Does the Chargemaster fall under a different stipulation? Just curious, let's not get riled.

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Rifletom

Hmm. I am under the impression that RCBS has lifetime warranty on all their products.
Does the Chargemaster fall under a different stipulation? Just curious, let's not get riled.

LIMITED WARRANTY

..for one year..

Electronic Products:
ChargeMaster Scale/Combo/Dispenser, RangeMaster Scale, AmmoMaster Chronograph


Source: http://rcbs.com/Help/Warranty.aspx

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by 603Country

I just communicated with a professional commercial reloader. He has quite a few Chargemasters for his business, and likes them a lot. However, he said that some double based flake powders will, over time (weeks), attack the plastic and be very tough to remove. Single based extruded powders seem to not have that problem.

Probably I’d have the same problem with the Lyman, but I never leave powder in it for more than 3 or 4 days.

Good to know...

I did the same... and that was enough.

The issue with the warning in the manual is, that in mine it was in the part with those general warnings that nobody reads, because these are so repetitive with all products. I don't recall reading this important detail when I read through the section that explains how to operate the device itself.

There is also no warning in the product description: http://rcbs.com/Products/Powder-Meas...4%A2-Lite.aspx

If I would have known this limitation, I would have never bought it. Not being able to keep powder in it over night is much like buying a car and the manufacturer expecting from you to remove the gas ever single night, because the tank can't hold it without getting damaged.

As I said, the Chargemaster is a design fail if it can't hold the only substances it is supposed to deal with. Which tells me that it was never developed for gunpowder to begin with.

All my powder measures have powder in them over night, heck for weeks and sometimes months, because I'm not going to remove it when I know that I will continue to load the same powder. None of my other powder measures get damaged from ANY powder. Not Redding, not Dillon, not Hornady, not my Omega trickler. Only the RCBS Chargemaster takes a huge hit.

I rest my case.

[Rifletom]

Ok McCarthy, was not sure about RCBS' electronics. Thanks for that. It just seems you're a bit miffed when people here don't take your words for gospel.

I rest my case.