The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 18, 2018, 12:09 PM   #26
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
The BATFE must love people with Hispanic last names, such as Guillermo-Rodrigo de Jesus Cortez Escobar-Rivera de la Montagna.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old November 18, 2018, 12:12 PM   #27
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,815
Not to mention cultures in which the order of names is different.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.
Spats McGee is offline  
Old November 18, 2018, 05:55 PM   #28
heyjoe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Posts: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjoe
So apparently its not a federal requirement for a real Id to have your full middle name.


Quote:
Franken Mauser :It is a requirement, but some mistakes (or omissions) may slip through the cracks.
Wow. I have to wonder now if I will have problems using my real id in 2020
heyjoe is offline  
Old November 18, 2018, 06:06 PM   #29
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
Quote:
Not to mention cultures in which the order of names is different.
That includes Hispanic. In most (if not all) Hispanic countries, women don't change their last name when they marry. The full version of a Spanish name uses the father's last name followed by the mother's last name. In the short version, the mother's last name is dropped. The "intermediate" version has the mother's last name reduced to an initial. Thus:

If Juan Cortez [father's name] Barrios [mother's name] marries Maria Gonzalez [father's name] Rivera {mother's name], a son named Carlos would carry the following name:

Carlos Cortez Gonzalez (long version)
Carlos Cortez (short version)
Carlos Cortez G. (intermediate version)

This completely befuddles most American systems because we see Carlos Cortez Gonzales and assume that Gonzales is the legal last name. In his native country it's not -- it's the mother's last name, and that's the name that gets dropped or truncated in less formal/legal usage.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old November 18, 2018, 08:13 PM   #30
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
I'm not aware of any statute or ATF opinion requiring an ID to have the full middle name printed on it. I was in the business for many years, so unless something changed (paging dogtown tom!), this sounds like Academy's policy and not law.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old November 19, 2018, 11:27 AM   #31
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,783
(NMN)

Quote:
I'm not aware of any statute or ATF opinion requiring an ID to have the full middle name printed on it.
Nor I and have filled in that space with (NMN) As I don't have one, and it's accepted. ..…

Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old November 19, 2018, 11:43 AM   #32
Roamin_Wade
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2018
Location: Baytown, TX
Posts: 220
I work at a Gun store in Texas and as it was said above, one can put “IO” or “NMN” in that far right box. I’m not sure how common it is but I am even made to get them to put the quotations for each of those written in with them.
Academy does not have a reliably proficient handlers. For all we know, they could be working in the Firearms section today but they normally work in the shoes section.
Roamin_Wade is offline  
Old November 19, 2018, 11:44 AM   #33
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pahoo
Nor I and have filled in that space with (NMN) As I don't have one, and it's accepted. ..…
Not even the BATFE can force you to take on a new middle name if there wasn't one on your birth certificate. I think the issue is people who have a middle name but who (like me) use just the middle initial as their legal signature. Just about every piece of identification I carry has only the middle initial: my drivers license; two different state-issued IDs related to my work; all my credit cards; four out of five carry permits; Medicare card; VA Healthcare ID card. There are probably a couple more, but those are the one I can think of off-hand.

My passport includes the full middle name, but I don't carry either the passport or the passport card on a daily basis.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old November 19, 2018, 12:26 PM   #34
Armed_Chicagoan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2013
Location: Albany Park, Chicago
Posts: 776
I knew a guy in college who had no middle name, just a middle initial. His middle name was literally just "F".
Armed_Chicagoan is offline  
Old November 19, 2018, 12:54 PM   #35
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 8,638
The Evil Pawn Shop Guy told me about this a few days ago.

The Evil Pawn Shop Guy told me about this a few days ago.

My parents named me Howard Hughes Graham,,,
Back in 1978 I had my name changed to Howard Hughes Aarond Graham.

I wanted to change it to Aarond H. Graham,,,
But my Mom pitched a fit so I just added Aarond to the original.

This is where it gets dodgy.

The Air Force lawyer I used said to get all of my new ID cards as Aarond H. Graham,,,
He advised me that it was perfectly legal to use a derivative of your name,,,
It's kind of like a man named Johnathan using Johnny as a legal name,,,
In fact, it's called a Legal Alias.

So every ID I have had since 1978 has Aarond H. Graham on it,,,
That includes my Social Security Card.

The Patriot Act changed a lot of that though,,,
It didn't make my "alias" illegal,,,
Just inconvenient to use.

Several years ago, Oklahoma changed it's laws to conform to the Patriot Act,,,
The name on your driver's license must now match your birth certificate.

Or in my case, the legal papers that are my Name Change Document.

So my drivers license now has Howard Hughes Aarond Graham on it,,,
Which is fortunate for me because I can use it to comply with the new regulation.

I'll be testing it out next week,,,
I'm ordering a Phoenix Arms HP-22 Range Kit.

Aarond

.
__________________
Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat.
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old November 19, 2018, 05:46 PM   #36
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,786
Quote:
I have a middle name. I actually go by my middle name. Given a choice, I fill out forms with first initial, middle name, and last name. Surprisingly few forms are formatted in such a way that I can do so. I sign almost everything with first two initials and last name. Fortunately, it has never caused me any difficulty in buying a firearm. Unfortunately, my life is an unending stream of people calling me by the wrong name.
Every sentence of that applies to me, but there are times I just give in and let them call me by my first name. It is actually handy when someone calls my office and claims to be a friend to get past my receptionist. If they call me by my first name, they don't know me, or they know me only from a form, and their claims of being pals can be seen as false.
TailGator is offline  
Old November 19, 2018, 07:54 PM   #37
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,991
Perfect

Yup I use that technique too tailgator. My first name is actually Frederick, everybody that knows me knows I go by the diminutive Rick.

I expect people I don't know to call me Fred, and that is of course OK, it's a fine name. It's just not "my" name.

My wife is also my Admin. assistant. She knows not to transfer calls to me if they ask for Fred, and they are claiming to know me.

It can actually be kinda fun.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old November 20, 2018, 07:05 AM   #38
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by TailGator View Post
Every sentence of that applies to me, but there are times I just give in and let them call me by my first name. It is actually handy when someone calls my office and claims to be a friend to get past my receptionist. If they call me by my first name, they don't know me, or they know me only from a form, and their claims of being pals can be seen as false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricklin View Post
Yup I use that technique too tailgator. My first name is actually Frederick, everybody that knows me knows I go by the diminutive Rick.

I expect people I don't know to call me Fred, and that is of course OK, it's a fine name. It's just not "my" name.

My wife is also my Admin. assistant. She knows not to transfer calls to me if they ask for Fred, and they are claiming to know me.

It can actually be kinda fun.
Been there, done that, on all counts! I don't want to derail the thread with this, but going by your middle name does make for a handy screening device.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.
Spats McGee is offline  
Old November 25, 2018, 01:20 AM   #39
Jimbomac930
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2018
Posts: 1
My full name isn't on my id so academy wouldn't process my purchase either. Does anyone know if i bring my birth certificate, considering it has my full middle name, back with me that will be enough? I really don't want to deal with DPS and tag agency if i don't have to...
Jimbomac930 is offline  
Old November 25, 2018, 08:19 AM   #40
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,815
That sounds like a question for Academy.

Welcome to TFL.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.
Spats McGee is offline  
Old November 25, 2018, 10:30 PM   #41
Paul B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,790
I recently renewed my DL here in Arizona and printed right on the top, "NOT FOR FEDERAL IDENTIFICATION". I have one of those passport cards that allows me to travel back and forth into Canada or Mexico so when I flew to Salt Lake City last weekend, 11/16/18 it came in handy. The idiot at TSA said it was no good so I pulled out the passport card and was allowed to pass. Funny thing coming home from SLC Sunday my DL worked just fine.
Paul B.
__________________
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
Paul B. is offline  
Old November 26, 2018, 05:54 PM   #42
pete2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,566
The 4473 form requires a middle name, or IO(initial only), or NMN(no middle name). If your ID only has a middle initial then it probably isn't acceptable if you actually have a middle name. Different ATF agents have different requirements, different dealers have different requirements. A P.O. box is not acceptable for an address either.
The dealer has to be careful because he doesn't want to lose his FFL.
pete2 is offline  
Old November 26, 2018, 07:52 PM   #43
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
Clarification from California, FWIW:

https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/atta...er-alert_0.pdf
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.05289 seconds with 8 queries