December 6, 2018, 08:56 AM | #26 |
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HD,
Not only do the shell holders have the horizontal play, but another difference in that system is the shell rests on a platform that supports the rim all the way around with no gap as you have in a conventional shell holder. It may be a small factor, but it is better symmetry. Earlier you said alignment was over-thought, but I'm going to suggest that proving something can't work by logic when experience shows it works anyway is also over-thinking. What is needed is, perhaps, a new analysis. It may be some other factor none of us have considered here. Or it may be that shell holder and the flat backing are the main trick. That suggests another experiment. At some point, when they were on sale, I bought the Forster adapter for the Co-ax press that lets you use conventional shell holders with it. I had in mind to use it with the Redding Competition Shell holders, but that hasn't proved necessary, so I've never actually had occasion to try it out. But if I put it on the press and that deteriorates final round runout it would confirm the shell holder is the key difference. I'll have to think about that. Another experiment that could be tried is taking a conventional press and swapping out shell holders. If you look at charts of shell holders from different makers, they don't use the same number systems and some brands will use the same number for two different cartridges that another maker has different numbers for. As a result, you can find shell holders for a cartridge that are looser in one brand than in another and that will provide some horizontal wiggle room. I have some Lyman and RCBS as well as Lee holders for the .473-0.010" head rimless cases ('06, 308, 45 Auto, etc.). Maybe one will be loose enough. Well, now I've got more things to try than time. I'll bookmark this thread and come back to it when I have some results.
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December 6, 2018, 09:34 AM | #27 | |
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Just removing the expander ball and decaping rod rod and leaving the bushing adjustment backed off 1/16th of a turn to allow a little float in the bushing is my only "trick" here is a 300 yd target from a match, my lack of wind and mirage skills killed the score on this one but 19 of the 20 rounds were a little over .4 MOA in vertical spread. The 20th shot at 11 o'clock in the ten ring would put it up to .6 MOA vertical https://i.imgur.com/vA22xF9.jpg The ammo did it's job, they guy behind the trigger was the weak link. Even if the group had been centered I would have still dropped 4 or 5 points so it's not great shooting at all but it does show what the ammo can do. You don't get vertical spreads of .5 MOA at 300 if your ammo has a lot of runout. The only real tests of what your ammo can do are conducted at the shootijng range. If you are getting small verticals then the ammo is working fine and no changes in equipment or load are necessary, those pesky horizontal spreads are the fault of the guy or gal pulling the trigger wind reading skills nine out of ten times. No amount of money spent on anything other than range practice change that speaking of which it's time to pack up for a range session
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“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; December 6, 2018 at 09:43 AM. |
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December 6, 2018, 06:56 PM | #28 | |
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Sigh, no shooting unless I do it in the cold, range with the heat overhead is close till January.
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December 6, 2018, 07:04 PM | #29 | |
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RC you make me feel bad for thinking 55F and sunny is cold
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regardless I get great runout numbers the way I am doing things and while I wouldn't mind a new toy but I don't think a press is going to win out
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“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; December 6, 2018 at 07:22 PM. |
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December 6, 2018, 08:30 PM | #30 |
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edit note: comment deleted by myself
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“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” ― Ronald Reagan Last edited by oley55; December 7, 2018 at 06:58 PM. Reason: regret the debate |
December 6, 2018, 09:22 PM | #31 |
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Oley 55, The die in a conventional press is locked, but the case floats for alignment. Put a case into the shellholder and wiggle it side to side, up and down and at an angle. That is your float. A good die in a name brand press should be within a couple of ten thousandths of center. You case has several thousandths play in all directions to allow itself to align to the die. If something stopped it from aligning you would ruin the case
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December 6, 2018, 09:42 PM | #32 |
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edit note: deleted by myself
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“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” ― Ronald Reagan Last edited by oley55; December 7, 2018 at 06:59 PM. Reason: I engaging in the debate |
December 6, 2018, 11:04 PM | #33 |
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same way the case goes into the chamber, it is not perfectly aligned when you start closing that bolt but it aligns and enters the chamber because it is floating on the bolt head just like it is floating in the shell holder. It "chambers" in the die the same way it "chambers" itself in the rifle
@Uncle Nick, think you could maybe make a drawing showing how a case floats in a shellholder and aligns as it enters the die. A lot of people,such as my wife, can't visualize spatial relationships without a visual aid. You guys have no idea how many furniture mockups and scale models I have built over the years when buying or building new furniture and appliances over the years Best way I can explain it is with the closing the bolt on case scenario. If you look at the bottom of your sizing dies they all have a radius chamfer to act as a 360 degree loading ramp. I can think of other examples such as pistons, hydraulic cylinders and rams etc. I used to work on this one high pressure pump. Only pumped a few cc's per minute but at 10K pounds output. Piston was solid alumina ceramic with no rings. The cylinder was a sleeve of silicon carbide. Replacing the piston was on the same principle, radius chamfer the cylinder and let the rod find its way into alignment
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“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; December 6, 2018 at 11:27 PM. |
December 7, 2018, 08:53 AM | #34 |
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I'll have to think about how to present that. It needs to be exaggerated to be visible. The float is easy to show perpendicular to the case. But a case that starts into a die whose axis is imperfectly normal to the plane of the shell holder deck will be subject to asymmetrical stress and extra force leaning on one side of the rim during sizing. But in real situations that error is generally small. Most of the damage to coaxial alignment is, as you mentioned before, necks being pulled off-axis by a sizing die expander.
Someone had commented the ram in an old press of his had a lot of wiggle in its fit in the journal in the press frame, but that it seemed to work just fine. Extra float.
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December 7, 2018, 09:26 AM | #35 | |
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December 7, 2018, 09:50 AM | #36 |
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edit note: deleted by myself
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“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” ― Ronald Reagan Last edited by oley55; December 9, 2018 at 07:57 AM. |
December 7, 2018, 11:12 AM | #37 | |
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Not trying to be insulting but I would think a airtraffic controller would just walk over to his press, place a piece of brass in the shellholder and wiggle it and immediately grasp the concept how the brass floats in the shellholder and aligns itself to the die as it enters it. If you can't see that then there is not much else I can do for you
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“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; December 7, 2018 at 02:13 PM. |
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