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Old July 18, 2019, 01:11 AM   #1
MC_MuHyeon
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Why is semi-auto so dominant in ISSF 25m centerfire shooting event?

Title says it all. According to ISSF rules, revolvers are allowed, but almost every shooter uses semi autos like pardini in .32 cal. Has anybody seen competitors with revolvers instead of semi-autos in ISSF 25m centerfire event?
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Old July 18, 2019, 05:58 AM   #2
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That's a gun you will not see robbing a Convenience store, right? Try tucking one of those into your pants.
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Old July 18, 2019, 08:29 AM   #3
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I think because autos are used in the .22 events and common handling is a benefit.
Even common actions, some can be had with interchangeable .22 and .32 uppers.
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Old July 18, 2019, 01:07 PM   #4
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You will not see any firearm robbing a convenience store.
Very few revolvers are made that shoot .32 S&W Long accurately enough. However, you don't have to move any part of your body to cock a pistol. Means there's no risk, of any kind, of you changing your grip.
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Old July 18, 2019, 01:48 PM   #5
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Semiauto triggers are better for accuracy. Semiauto barrels are more accurate than revolver barrels; one chamber aligns the same to the rifling whereas six will each be different.

Same thing happened in the late 50's and early 60's with NRA bullseye pistol events when top 'smiths learned how to make M1911 pistols shoot more accurate than any centerfire revolver.
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Old July 18, 2019, 01:55 PM   #6
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Regarding guns and crime......

Guns do not commit crimes. People do.

If guns commit crimes, how come they are not tried in courts?

There are no laws stating it is illegal for a firearm to commit any crime.
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Old July 19, 2019, 01:54 PM   #7
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Revolvers have been out of fashion for competitive events for years.
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Old July 20, 2019, 05:44 PM   #8
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Before I went to a 3 calibre Italian pistol, wooden grips your hand fit inside of.
I shot a .22 S&W Model 52, and an S&W in .38 Special pistol, shot wadcutters, .148g rimmed cartridges. Had to be careful how you fit them into the magazine
rims had to face the front!
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Old July 20, 2019, 08:33 PM   #9
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I've shot both my Dan Wesson .357 with wadcutters in the centerfire stage and a S&W 25-2 in the 45 stage in local league matches just for the experience. The single-action triggers were just fine, both having been worked on.

It takes some work, but I've got a revolver that shoots up to my best 1911, running under an inch at 50 yards (a Ruger Redhawk) and I 've seen others. Good revolversmiths who can make that happen are vanishingly rare.

The main problem with revolvers up against pistols is it simply takes longer to cock the hammer and get back on target with one hand than it does waiting for a pistol to settle. You feel rushed, so it's just not as easy to keep pace without hurrying shots. Old timers claimed cocking the hammer actually helped them get back on target. I didn't give it enough chance to acquire the feeling that was happening. I suspect most people don't, and that's resulted in fewer good revolver shots and that, in turn, is one reason there are separate revolver matches today.

Jeff Cooper suggested a variation of the Weaver hold in which the weak hand thumb handles cocking the hammer. But while I think that could work on a bull's-eye target, the rules would not allow the spare hand's involvement.

The fact is, semi-auto mechanisms get you back on a target with greater speed and less physical effort than manual actions do in handguns, rifles, and shotguns unless you are willing to undergo some very lengthy and dedicated muscle training. (And even then, the greater muscle effort is still with you.) It's why the Garand was an advantage over the Mauser. Less time back on target means more time to place shots. Reliability and complexity matters aside, self-loading is a technical advancement.
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Old July 20, 2019, 09:10 PM   #10
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Another advantage is that you can load all your mags the night before and then concentrate only on shooting during the match. It's not a big advantage, but it's one less thing to mess with at a time when avoiding distractions is helpful.

Also, all else being equal, felt recoil tends to be less with a semi-auto. Again, maybe not a huge advantage, but it makes shooting a little easier and every little bit helps.

Finally, shooting semi-autos tends to just be less messy than shooting revolvers. Cleanup for you and for the gun is easier and while that may not buy you anything during a match, it can be a consideration when making the choice. I tend to shoot my semi-autos more often than my revolvers for this reason even though I really prefer revolvers.
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Old July 21, 2019, 11:04 AM   #11
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I don't know squat about handgun competition but I have a feeling that every gun, regardless of action type is worked over for serious competitor's. Year's ago in Colorado in a gun store I saw a DA revolver worked over as a competition gun by the gunsmith Clark, in California. The hammer was bobbed off and in the trigger guard was a rubber bumper behind the trigger. You pulled the trigger and the bumper stopped it and the trigger release rivaled most any fine tuned rifle I've ever seen. No serious competition is anything used as issued factory equipment I don't think except in bowling!
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Old July 25, 2019, 08:50 PM   #12
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Quote:
Semiauto triggers are better for accuracy. Semiauto barrels are more accurate than revolver barrels; one chamber aligns the same to the rifling whereas six will each be different.
I guess you have never shot a good revolver. A revolver in proper time drops the bullets into a cone close enough that any difference is irrelevant. A semi locks and unlocks with each shot, the sights are not attached to the barrel. Trigger manipulation is a matter of skill as long as the trigger is smooth.

Quote:
Same thing happened in the late 50's and early 60's with NRA bullseye pistol events when top 'smiths learned how to make M1911 pistols shoot more accurate than any centerfire revolver.
As accurate maybe, but not more accurate. Have you ever shot a custom revolver? When you accurize a 1911 to that point you sacrifice some reliability with certain bullet profiles.
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Old July 25, 2019, 08:56 PM   #13
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Another advantage is that you can load all your mags the night before and then concentrate only on shooting during the match. It's not a big advantage, but it's one less thing to mess with at a time when avoiding distractions is helpful.
In revolver competitions you use loading blocks that position the rounds so that you slip the speedloader over them. Safariland used to make a shooting box set up for PPC shooters that way.
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Old July 25, 2019, 08:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
The main problem with revolvers up against pistols is it simply takes longer to cock the hammer and get back on target with one hand than it does waiting for a pistol to settle. You feel rushed, so it's just not as easy to keep pace without hurrying shots. Old timers claimed cocking the hammer actually helped them get back on target. I didn't give it enough chance to acquire the feeling that was happening. I suspect most people don't, and that's resulted in fewer good revolver shots and that, in turn, is one reason there are separate revolver matches today.
A double action revolver is meant to be shot double action.
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Old July 25, 2019, 08:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Revolvers have been out of fashion for competitive events for years.
Except IDPA and ICORE.
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Old July 25, 2019, 10:35 PM   #16
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What is the best accuracy average at 50 yards any centerfire revolver has produced for several 20 shot groups?

Last edited by Bart B.; July 25, 2019 at 10:44 PM.
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Old July 25, 2019, 11:46 PM   #17
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I'm thinking you'll be very lucky if you can find even one revolver tested at 50 yards with "several 20 shot groups".

Regardless of the theoretical benefits of such testing, if almost no one tests using that method, it's sort of pointless to espouse it, or to try to compare guns in that manner unless you plan to do all the testing yourself.
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Old July 26, 2019, 06:30 AM   #18
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Interesting. I don't shoot ISSF. BUT shot the best center fire score in my life witha K frame 38 and Hollow base wadcutters. I shoot the rapid fire in double action. I have had my butt handed to me by a guy shooting a revolver when I was shooting a 1911. His slow fire target was a single hole of 10 shots. Rapid fire he did not do as well as most, but shot the gun single action.

Sure a 32 semi auto with a fixed barrel is accurate. It takes more time to learn to shoot a revolver in DA. I was told in 1987 when I bought my first Dan Wesson model 15 to shoot DA only and it will become second nature. It did. The K 38 I shoot now has a better trigger than the Dan Wesson did.

I regularly shoot a Dan Wesson Valor in 45 or PM-9 in centerfire, but get the revolver out a few times a year. Twice a year I shoot a 4 gun match. 30 rounds each, rimfire, any center fire, Revolver and 1911.

All my guns have a dot sight now.

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Old July 26, 2019, 08:08 AM   #19
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I've owned several custom built revolvers and semi autos. Bill Davis built the best revolvers in the world a few years back. I owned two of them. I've practiced and competed with both and at the end of the day the semi is almost always more accurate and definitely much easier to shoot accurately. There's simply more in the process to shoot a revolver accurately in timed events. There's no sense in arguing about which is better, the numbers speak for themselves. In the ten years I shot Sportsman's Team Challenge I only ever saw one shooter other than myself use a revolver in the precision speed event. He did run the targets the one time he tried it. He was a master gunsmith and national top rated shooter. He even commented that the revolver in the best hands will come in second over time, and in less experienced hands will lose about all of the time. During my time shooting Team Challenge I had to "resort" to using one of my Bill Davis guns three times due to my semi being back getting work done. Twice I managed to run the event and once I finished with a 11x12. Reloading just eats up the clock with a revolver.
David R: you should take that Bill Davis FrankenRuger you own out some time and give it a try in one of your matches. That gun is definitely a shooter.
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Old July 26, 2019, 09:57 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David R View Post
His slow fire target was a single hole of 10 shots.
Single hole? 50 yards? All bullets into same hole bullet diameter edge to edge?

99% luck in my opinion.
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Old July 26, 2019, 11:56 AM   #21
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Why is semi-auto so dominant in ISSF 25m centerfire shooting event?

50 feet. One ragged hole. I never said one bullet size hole. No spaces or paper between the bullets. Still one hole. He did this pretty regular.

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Old July 26, 2019, 12:05 PM   #22
Jim Watson
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ISSF has two stages in the Centerfire Pistol match.
Slow fire, 5 shots, 5 minutes, six times.

Rapid fire (They used to call it The Duel.) Targets face you (or you get a green light) for 3 seconds, face away (or a red light) for 7 seconds, back for 3 seconds, etc for 5 shots six times.
Can you cock a revolver and get your attention back on the target in seven seconds? It is certainly possible, there were a fair number of revolvers shot before the .32 wadcutter autos got refined, but it is going to take some effort that the automatic takes care of for you.
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Old July 27, 2019, 11:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
What is the best accuracy average at 50 yards any centerfire revolver has produced for several 20 shot groups?
Look at some PPC guns. A High Master class shooter can keep them all in the X ring on a B-27.
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Old July 28, 2019, 01:47 AM   #24
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What are the revolvers capable of when fired from a ransom rest? Actual results, please, no speculation.
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Old July 28, 2019, 06:49 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
Look at some PPC guns. A High Master class shooter can keep them all in the X ring on a B-27.
The NRA PPC Rule Book does not list target ring sizes.

A search came up stating about 2 x 3 inches; 55 x 78 mm .

I cannot get NRA PPC records listed on their web site to verify at least one B-27 target has all Xes. Then I came across this site:

https://lecompetitions.nra.org/progr...ional-records/

... and none of the revolver records were all Xes at 50 yards.

I have seen M1911 45 ACP wadcutter pistol 50 yard test targets shot with Remington wadcutter ammo several 10 shot groups under 1.5 inch. The USN Match Conditioning Unit used a Broadway machine rest in their test range. Army and USMC built 1911's were as good.

Isn't this about hand gun accuracy, not human marksmanship level?

Last edited by Bart B.; July 28, 2019 at 09:33 AM.
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