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Old January 21, 2019, 06:46 PM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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Avoidance cues

In some trends, we discuss how to detect and avoid problems. Sometimes folks prefer confrontation and standing their ground. Whether that is a good idea is debatable.

In any case, here is a good read on how to detect threats.

https://www.activeresponsetraining.n...ult-indicators
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Old January 22, 2019, 08:45 AM   #2
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A gun can give the same kind of "courage" as whiskey.Its illusion.Any drunk can be a jackass and any coward can strap on a gun.

Carry WISDOM. Packing iron may be Wise. That's true. Put your Wisdom on before you put your gun on.
Update:

I read the article. Its about Wisdom.

Last edited by HiBC; January 22, 2019 at 09:15 AM.
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Old January 22, 2019, 08:52 AM   #3
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HiBC, agreed. Thinkers before shooters.

Going to read the link now.
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Old January 22, 2019, 11:43 AM   #4
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I think that this is the greatest collection of advice that I can recall reading. I like to try and maintain that sort of consciousness, and I have learned to recognize a lot of or even most of the signs that someone is possibly an aggressive or criminal type. The next and even more important step is to learn how to do all of this with a casual appearance and attitude so that one doesn't become exactly what he is looking for. Furtively swinging eyes back and forth while staring at or closely observing another is almost certain to gather attention as well.

There are obviously going to be people who dive in here and criticize the whole idea of closely observing the people who surround you because of invasion of their privacy, the possibility of making them mad, or even being mistaken for a hoodlum by the others who are nearby.

Maintain an open and neutral expression. Keep your head high and body erect, and body open. glance around without ever landing your eyes on any particular face or staring. If a person allows himself to present aggressively, he will stick out like an angry dog. the plan is to look neutral and gray, not powerful and threatening, nor sappy and vulnerable.
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Old January 22, 2019, 11:57 AM   #5
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I'll temper this just a bit. We CAN read someone wrong,misinterpetation is possible.

We might be observing someone having a bowel disturbance and is trying not to soil himself.

It would be a bad idea to run a Mozambique drill on someone because we heard the thoughts in his head.
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Old January 22, 2019, 12:26 PM   #6
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there may be nothing that is more difficult than discerning mental illness. a person who has received any sort of treatment has had an opportunity to learn his individual tells and how to mask them, but not everyone has the ability.

very few people can tell the difference between a little weird or a bit dim witted and having a serious problem. some of the most horrible beasts in the history of mankind were pathological killers, but were still respected and loved, simply because they were a good fit for the times and culture that they lived in.

I'm not so sure that sherman was a hero.
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Old January 22, 2019, 01:38 PM   #7
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How do you illustrate the issue without putting yourself in jeopardy or creating a circular argument?

I knew something was wrong
I avoided the situation
Nothing happened

I must have been right that something was wrong. Not really. There is no proof of that. The author of the cited work wants to portray himself as an expert because he knew something was wrong, DREW a knife on multiple adversaries, and then had his companion redirect him into a public venue to avoid the confrontation he was prepared to rapidly escalate.

Sorry but when your own version of the events paints you as being that ready to escalate a situation I'm not accepting your expertise on avoidance.

"Behind every cloak I imagined a sword" is only a way to live life if one believes they can deal with the danger presented.
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Old January 22, 2019, 03:20 PM   #8
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observing, suspecting, preparing, knowing and acting are only five stages of a really complex formula and process that can prevent or survive an attack, and if you don't follow all of those processes you endanger yourself. There are many other steps or events, but it all begins with being ready to defend. Arming oneself against criminal attack and learning how to do so. then you must learn how to read the signs and become prepared, as well as develop the necessary good judgement to prevent tragedy.

The problem with reading and learning online is that your wisdom comes to you by the paragraph in a discontinuous and confused manner, many times contradictory and sometimes clearly absolute BS.

You simply can't learn to drive a car from a thirty page pamphlet. It's even worse if the pamphlet was compiled from a dozen different sources, cut and pasted in one paragraph at a time.
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Old January 23, 2019, 01:34 PM   #9
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none of it is rocket science but I will say that if a person is looking too hard for the drug dealer on the corner.. everyone and everything starts looking like a drug deal. People probably need to simply listen to their gut, remain open and alert to the ongoings around them and don't try to be the criminal profiler that they are not. Threat indicators, deception indicator, action indicators, flight indicators and usually qualified based on several things coming together in the moment and not any one thing. I have interviewed people who said and did all the right things while offering no indication of deception and turned out to be the badguy and I have interviewed people who said everything wrong, behaved wrong and were textbook examples of deception and ultimately turned out to be the most honest person in the room. I believe in the science of body language but accept that determination made on that basis may not always be correct.

When it comes to safety, I have always erred on the side of caution. If I think something bad is happening, I make no apologies for doing what I felt I needed to do to remain safe. At the same time, I own whatever mistake I may have made in the process.
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Old January 23, 2019, 01:57 PM   #10
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1. projecting strength is a culmination of many things and appearing strong, strong willed or confident is not the same thing as being provocative or aggressive. Sometimes weakness attracts aggression and sometimes being "neutral" can embolden a hostile person who see's it as weakness. Especially if you maintain a neutrality demeanor in the face of an intentional test of your resolve. Sometimes a person making an unpleasant comment to you or encroaching into your space, is a test. That is not to say that a person should throw fuel on the fire but sometimes its all a balancing act. I am usually regarded by people who do not know me as a standoffish personality. I don't have too many people walking up to me or interacting with me in public. Pretty much because I do not suffer strangers or give them an opening, I mind my own business and expect others to do the same.

2. people seem to have some desire to figure out people who they see as a problem. Why care? Its not my problem to fix, I will simply avoid the problem and carry on. Was I right... was I wrong? I am not keeping score. We make thousands of decisions a day and decision made in regards to my personal safety are not all that different than any other decision I make during the course of the day. If you wait for a car to pass before proceeding through the intersection do you sit and wonder about if you could have made it? If you do its probably a millisecond .. and that is probably how your personal safety decision should be categorized. Evaluate and make a decision.. put that decision into motion and carry on.

3. This stuff is not a contest, and it should probably not be something to measure what you are right or wrong about. Did you get home without a problem? if so, great. Nobody is keeping score. Could you have been wrong about the weirdo at the icecream shop?.. sure.. so what, nobody is keeping score. Did you make it home without a problem? That is all that really matters.
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Old January 23, 2019, 03:37 PM   #11
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Avoidance Cues.... I think they call this profiling and is illegal to do.
Just because a guy , or group of guys, look like , talk like and act like criminals ...we must give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are law abiding , honest upright citizens that mean us no harm...right !

My old Daddy used to say " If it looks like a duck , waddles like a duck and Quacks like a duck... then it's a duck ! " But my old man wasn't exactly politically correct in his actions...He called a spade ..a spade !
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Old January 23, 2019, 03:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
Avoidance Cues.... I think they call this profiling and is illegal to do.
Just because a guy , or group of guys, look like , talk like and act like criminals ...we must give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are law abiding , honest upright citizens that mean us no harm...right !

My old Daddy used to say " If it looks like a duck , waddles like a duck and Quacks like a duck... then it's a duck ! " But my old man wasn't exactly politically correct in his actions...He called a spade ..a spade !
Avoidance cues aren't the same as racial profiling.

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Old January 23, 2019, 04:09 PM   #13
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I liked the article, depending on the individual it either gives you knowledge or reminds you of same.

Knowledge plus experience can result in wisdom... you can have all the knowledge in the world but having only the pamphlet won't key your mind into going into the restaurant as his GF suggested.

Knowing you have the tools on your person may help give you confidence to avoid confrontations, without becoming frustrated or scared into the fight/flight response.
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Old January 23, 2019, 04:18 PM   #14
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Avoidance Cues.... I think they call this profiling and is illegal to do
Are you suggesting that one person cannot form an opinion about another? If what I am thinking in my mind is not favorable to a person and as a result I choose to avoid them.. do you consider that to be a violation of someone elses rights? Call it profiling if you want but how is it illegal within the context of what I think in my mind as a private citizen.
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Old January 23, 2019, 07:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Avoidance Cues.... I think they call this profiling and is illegal to do.
a private citizen can hold whatever view they want of another person. profiling in a broad sense is not illegal. profiling actions are perfectly legal.
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Old January 23, 2019, 07:55 PM   #16
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Not the same

I shall note that a previous poster jumped right to racial profiling.

Yes, racial profiling is against the law. We all profile people, day in and day out. I'm a sales rep, and the products I sell run to 5, 6 and 7 figures.

Am I profiling when working with a client? Heck yes. I'm keying on body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, because I need to have a clue as to what the client is thinking, am I presenting the right things to "push their buttons" or do I need to adjust my approach?

We all profile, it's normal human behavior. Racial profiling? That's a different thing, and is pretty disgusting.
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Old January 23, 2019, 08:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricklin View Post
I shall note that a previous poster jumped right to racial profiling.



Yes, racial profiling is against the law. We all profile people, day in and day out. I'm a sales rep, and the products I sell run to 5, 6 and 7 figures.



Am I profiling when working with a client? Heck yes. I'm keying on body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, because I need to have a clue as to what the client is thinking, am I presenting the right things to "push their buttons" or do I need to adjust my approach?



We all profile, it's normal human behavior. Racial profiling? That's a different thing, and is pretty disgusting.
I'm aware of the difference. My point was comments like, "But that's not PC," or, "They used to do that in the past but don't allow it now", are essentially disregarding why the use of profiling in certain ways in the past became problematic. There are absolutely ways in which profiling to identify a threat are useful. And there are absolutely ways in which profiling can be used to propagate racial stereotypes. It's not all bad and it's not all good. Like most things in life, the difference is in the details.

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Old January 23, 2019, 11:58 PM   #18
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gwpercle


Quote:
Avoidance Cues.... I think they call this profiling and is illegal to do
This statement is thrown out during discussion far too often.

it's nonsense.

assessing a person's appearance and presentation in order to understand what his possible future behaviors might be?

I will give my favorite cap gun to anyone who can find and provide a printed copy of such a statute in the united states or her states or municipalities. A law that forbids me to look at another individual, privately assess what I see and hear, and draw a personal and private conclusion about his probable character, intentions, and possible future actions. This law must also have a clearly defined penalties, or it doesn't matter in the least.
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Old January 24, 2019, 09:51 AM   #19
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Profiling, done in a manner that does not result in action against the interest of the party, even racial profiling is not illegal.

It might make someone a racist jerk but its not illegal.

One of the things mentioned in this discussion (perhaps in the article) is the presence of tattoos. I have tattoos. Because I want to operate in polite society they are not visible in normal clothing. It stands to reason that someone with visible tattoos, especially on their face, has made the decision to operate outside of the confines of normal polite society and MAY represent more of a threat then someone who has not visibly made that choice.

That being said if you see a sword under every cloak and it forces you to hide within your fortress and not experience the world you have given up your life even though you may live
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Old January 24, 2019, 10:16 AM   #20
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That being said if you see a sword under every cloak and it forces you to hide within your fortress and not experience the world you have given up your life even though you may live

This is the dramatic opposite of what is being discussed here. Nobody is hiding inside for fear of what is outside.
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Old January 25, 2019, 03:28 PM   #21
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Thank you, that site was an interesting read.

It reminded me of a website I read years ago, that contained similar information about how to read situations and people in order to avoid conflict.

I searched for that site and it still exists, all these years later!

It is http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html and may be a little "busy" to read casually (filled with hot links to other pages within the site), but still may be interesting.
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Old January 25, 2019, 09:09 PM   #22
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I got confronted at a resturant by a drunk who was going to punch my lights out and give me two racoon eyes as he stated. I am 75 and had just stopped down to eat dinner and have a beer. I had been bear hunting all day and did not want to make dinner so I stopped at the local restraunt and the guy got in my face before I even entered. I had forgotten to take off my 9MM semi and had it under my jacket on an inside the hip holster.
He told me to get back in my truck and leave or he was going to beat crap out of me. I went back to my Modern Day Gunslinger book I had read the year before. I simply put my left hand up in a stop motion, started to back away with my other hand on my 9mm.
It was dark out so he did not see my right hand on the gun. I slowly backed away, got in my truck and left. Best move I ever made because he would have been dead if he had hit me and I would be in a world of "crap". Get a copy of the book I mentioned and live by it. It works. Avoidance and flee is the best alternative if give the option. If not, you have to defend yourself unfortunately. But if he is in his 40's and hits you at 75, I feel it would be justifable but why have to shoot some one or explain it to a grand jury if you can avoid?
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Old January 25, 2019, 09:41 PM   #23
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Racial profiling is only against the law when LEO's do it.
Racial profiling by ordinary citizens is called common sense and situational awareness....both are needed to survive.
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Old January 25, 2019, 11:08 PM   #24
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1. If you are ever involved in a shooting that ends up being controversial, your online postings could potentially be located.

If that were to happen, and the person who attacked you happened to be of a different race than you, it probably wouldn't be great for your defense if you have made posts that could be misinterpreted to suggest that you had prejudices against certain races.

2. There is absolutely nothing in the article or in the original post about race or racial profiling. It is about body language and behavior.

With that in mind:

There's good information in the article. Let's discuss it.

If you want to post about racial profiling, quit crapping in this thread and start your own thread on the topic. See how that works out for you...
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Old January 27, 2019, 10:25 AM   #25
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If you live in white instead of yellow you become an easy victim. Yellow means you always sit so you can see the entrances in a restaurant in the event bad people do something upon entry. You always carry a weapon and you avoid any and all unfriendly confrontation if at all possible. You don't mistrust everybody all the time, and you don't trust them totally either unless you know them well. You also dress the way people around you dress so you don't stand out in the crowd. All the above are simple little things you can do to help avoid and or live through trouble. I read the articles linked and I sure as hell did not see anything about racial profiling. Human type identification of all races and (in all parts of the world as it states) has nothing to do with race. Hope I didn't offend the poster who made those accusations.

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