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Old December 13, 2019, 12:32 PM   #26
zoo
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It is the lowly infraction that chips away at the foundation of society!
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Old December 13, 2019, 01:14 PM   #27
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Old December 13, 2019, 01:29 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
You really need to try one to understand them. I think most of the complaints and doubts come from those who have never used one.

I started with my first Smart Carry using my Seecamp for work, and it worked as advertised and very well.

I soon realized I could carry one of my Glock 26's (with a 17 reload) just as easily, and have been doing so for about a decade now.

When worn properly, the shirt does not get in the way, nor does the belt or pants, and you can easily draw the gun, with a proper grip, and with just one hand, even while sitting. Its easier than trying to draw from a pocket too.

Its very comfortable, for a 16 hour day, and is actually the only holster Ive ever worn, that the gun actually stays "clean" in. No dust, dirt, or dust bunnies.

Depending on the type of pants you wear, you can actually get away with up to a full-sized gun too. It tends to not be as comfortable, and the pants limit you more to dress type or oversized pants.

I normally wear my regular size Carhartt or Dickies type carpenter pants, which are more fitted/flat across the front, and the 26 with its 17 reload, are about perfect size-wise.

Ive carried guns as big as a Glock 19 and SIG P239 in one with no problems, wearing those looser type pants. Theres no doubt, the smaller you go the easier its probably going to be, but the fact is, you dont have to limit yourself and go down in size to guns that are usually relegated to second and third line back up. You can easily and comfortably, carry a more realistic and effective gun.

Now, there is one thing that may cause a holster of this type to be less effective, to even not useable at all for you, and it has nothing to do, with the gun, the holster, or your dress.
I used one for about a week and it never seemed I was able to get a good, reliable grip on the gun, unless I wore it high enough that it printed. It's always possible that I just need to try again.
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Old December 13, 2019, 01:47 PM   #29
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I used one for about a week and it never seemed I was able to get a good, reliable grip on the gun, unless I wore it high enough that it printed. It's always possible that I just need to try again.
All of them need a little getting used to until you figure them out and find your sweet spot.

It usually takes me about a week or so of wearing the gun around the house in a new/different holster, getting it figured out and doing presentations from it in practice.

Takes a little while for your body and brain to adjust, get comfortable with things, and get the gun going without thinking about it.
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Old December 13, 2019, 06:52 PM   #30
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The SmartCarry will certainly conceal well for non-permissive environments; but it isn’t super comfortable, especially if you are sitting. Either the grip is jammed in your abdomen or the muzzle is jammed in your groin.

You basically have to train the draw at home or a private range (not to mention the difficulty in reholstering safely). The draw is kind of deliberate and slow but doable. You can also grab the outside of your crotch and push up on the barrel for a presentation that’s quick but sacrifices safety.
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Old December 13, 2019, 07:33 PM   #31
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38 special S&W airweight in Ken Null under arm (up side down) holster. This does involve opening your shirt and practicing how to properly draw from that specific type of holster. Is totally concealed and don't worry about where to put gun during bathroom break.

Last edited by zeke; December 13, 2019 at 09:31 PM.
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Old December 14, 2019, 10:15 AM   #32
Bartholomew Roberts
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The under-the-shirt shoulder holsters don’t work well for most men because you can see the lines under most shirts, just like when a woman wears a bra you can make it out under the shirt. The only good thing is nobody is likely to ask you about what it is.

For women, it probably works better since we already expect to see that type of line.
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Old December 14, 2019, 10:34 AM   #33
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Unless you're the type that wears tight/translucent shirts, you don't see those straps.
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Old December 14, 2019, 10:57 AM   #34
AK103K
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Unless you're the type that wears tight/translucent shirts, you don't see those straps.
Shoulder holsters are generally the easiest holsters to spot. What the cover garment is really doesnt matter. Coat, shirt, whatever, they all allow the straps to print at some point.

The staps show through even heavier materials, especially when the material is drawn tight across them, and a lot of them show at the collar, and when people wear things "open", that should be "closed". Seen more than one "swing out" on someone.

I had one of Nulls SMZ holsters for my S&W's. It would work with some autos as well, but you had to be careful what you put in it, due to how the holster works.

It, and the Galco "Executive" were the only two shoulder holsters I ever really liked. Everything else was just too bulky and limiting. Of the two, I prefer the Galco.

I still have one Executive for my Glock 26, and sold the Null off not long after I got the first Galco.
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Old December 14, 2019, 11:45 AM   #35
Bartholomew Roberts
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Unless you're the type that wears tight/translucent shirts, you don't see those straps.
That hasn’t been my experience with either traditional shoulder holsters or the various cloth and velcro deep concealment holsters designed to be worn under a shirt.

However, I’d certainly be interested in seeing a picture showing how this is working for you.
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Old December 14, 2019, 01:03 PM   #36
zeke
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The upside down Null holster isn't anything like a traditional shoulder holster. Perhaps you could google it and actually look at it. My comments are from actual experience with the specific holster mentioned, and there are likely trade offs from any type of holster.

It worked for me after the State got concealed carry, and the governor allowed gooberment employees to carry at work. Was first non enforcement in our regional office to get permission to conceal, and was very closely observed by management for over a year. This in an agency chock full of tree huggers who strongly disliked the governor and Republicans. Then non tucked in shirts became more acceptable, and switched to inside belt carry, which is much better option.

To each their own, but sometimes speaking from actual experience provides some alternatives.
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Old December 14, 2019, 01:13 PM   #37
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I have actual experience with the Null holster as well, and seem to have had a different experience than you.

The Null, and Galco are both minimalist shoulder holsters, and about as small as they get, but they both still do print, or show a tell with their straps, just like the bigger holsters, especially if you now what youre looking at.

In reality, most people are oblivious to things anyway, so it probably doesnt matter, but for those who are looking, shoulder holsters are still usually one of the easiest to spot.
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Old December 14, 2019, 02:03 PM   #38
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While it worked for me, it was a pain to balance how the holster "hung", being able to draw (especially twisting to unsnap), the holster "swinging" around and where to attach the down strap. Cut a lot of the strap away for fit. Looked real careful and could not see any straps through the shirts being worn. The strap behind the neck could ride up on loose collared shirt, but had the neck of undershirt wrapped around it. If you wore a tighter shirt, the gun could certainly print. Like the holsters am using now, have adapted my clothes.

This allowed carrying a 38 special under a tucked in overshirt for 2 years, which felt was better option for me than the 380's owned at the time. Was it perfect? Definitely not and like all carry systems used/am using there are trade offs. Am no longer concerned with "deep" no one can see concealment, and haven't used the holster in years.

Have several other normal shoulder holsters in the "box", that would did not conceal very well, and none of them under a regular shirt.
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Old December 14, 2019, 02:50 PM   #39
Bill DeShivs
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A Keltec P32 can be carried under a shirt by using a neck lanyard with an oversized nylon cleaning brush stuck down the barrel.

The same gun can be invisibly carried IWB using the Keltec belt clip. It positions the gun just below the waist line of the pants.

Or, you can do like I have done for the past 22 years- just stick it in your pocket.
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Old December 14, 2019, 03:41 PM   #40
Bartholomew Roberts
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Well, here is one of the only reviews I can find of the Null holster being worn. In those pictures, it is printing mildly even though the cover garment is a sweater. So I’m not seeing how that’s going to work with a collared shirt.

https://welikeshooting.com/reviews/g...holster-twist/

In any case, it illustrates what I’m talking about with various deep concealment shirt shoulder holsters I’ve used (none of which were Null holsters). It’s just hard to explain straps printing underneath a man’s shirt - and few professional shirts are heavy enough to hide even thin straps.

And the thing is, if I can wear an untucked sweater or polo, then I can conceal a full-size pistol in an IWB rig.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; December 14, 2019 at 04:00 PM.
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Old December 14, 2019, 04:11 PM   #41
AK103K
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I still have a couple of "undershirt" holsters, a Kramer Confidant, and a 5.11.

The Kreamer is the better of the two, as it allows you to wear a regular tee under it and it looks more natural. Its also a lot more comfortable.

The 5.11 is polyester and the white shirt is "bright", you look like you just got out of boot camp if you wear an open collar shirt. The polyester also makes you sweat, and is annoying.

The 5.11 "holsters", basically just spandex pockets, sucks too. The gun moves around in the pocket and is very annoying, and not really in a good position.

The Confidant has more holster like pouches that hold the gun in place, and actually has a velcro strap that you can use. There is very little movement with them.
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Old December 14, 2019, 05:02 PM   #42
zeke
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Bart-Perhaps a smaller pistol would be more appropriate? Mine was used for a 638, and am not surprised at his results from a pistol sized like a Walther PP. That is not a pistol sized like a PPK, and with a little more patience the individual might have learned how to draw from the holster, as it is VERY different. Mine has the white straps.
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Old December 14, 2019, 05:51 PM   #43
Bartholomew Roberts
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Here are my thoughts from carrying in non-permissive environments. If I can wear a sweater, untucked polo, or suit coat, I can carry a full size pistol. If the concealment rig only works with .32, .380, or J-frames, I can just pocket carry and lose my strongside pocket.

My only interest is deep concealment is to carry something like a P365, Kimber Micro, or Glock 26. A compact pistol that actually works as a real gun across the distances I want to be competent at. J-frames are out the window because I am not competent with them and don’t want to invest the time.

So far, the only things that work at all are the SmartCarry or a pocket holster and certain types of slacks/khakis. Unfortunately, the slacks that work with a Glock 26 size pocket holster aren’t suitable professional attire. So despite a lot of issues I have with SmartCarry, it is still the one-eyed giant on the island of the blind.
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Old December 14, 2019, 07:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
I have actual experience with the Null holster as well, and seem to have had a different experience than you.

The Null, and Galco are both minimalist shoulder holsters, and about as small as they get, but they both still do print, or show a tell with their straps, just like the bigger holsters, especially if you now what youre looking at.

In reality, most people are oblivious to things anyway, so it probably doesnt matter, but for those who are looking, shoulder holsters are still usually one of the easiest to spot.
As someone who has primarily shoulder-carried in cool weather for years, I don't think anyone has ever noticed. The key factor is your cover garment. You won't be able to take it off, ever. Here is what I've learned:

Carry vertically. Having the gun in plane with your torso can minimize printing. Common concerns about shoulder carry include pointing the muzzle behind you and broad sweeps on the draw. This eliminates the former and allows you to minimize the latter. Practice drawing with an unloaded gun.

Choose height placement based on body type. Depending on your harness, you might be able to carry anywhere from right above the belt to way up in your armpit. Try different heights. Depending on your individual body type, different heights will print less or be easier to draw. I've found that high placement works for me. The main challenge is that your holster can start smelling like an armpit. Vodka is a good cleaner for this, especially on synthetics.

Now for the main thing: cover garments. Out and about around town, I've done well with just a leather jacket or canvas field coat. That's easy because at the store or wherever, you'll often keep those on. Winter jackets can be tougher depending on where you go, but none of this matters for most work environments. There, a suit, blazer, or even a thick cardigan sweater* can work; depending on your individual body type and choice of carry. Just remember, you'll be committed to it once you leave your house.

* A friend who knows jokingly calls this "Mr. Rogers Carry". This method is highly dependent on placement, body type, and choice of firearm. As with any of these, spend some time carrying around the house on weekends first. Have a family member watch for printing. The thinner or more sheer the material, the tougher it is. Learn what not to do, like crouching down to create a point behind you.
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Old December 14, 2019, 08:07 PM   #45
Bartholomew Roberts
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Cosmodragon hit a nice point I didn’t consider. I live in Texas. So about 9 or more months out of the year, a cover garment as thick as a cardigan sweater is problematic. Because you are going to sweat like a pig.

So, some of the issues I’m experiencing probably reflect geography.
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Old December 14, 2019, 08:08 PM   #46
Bill DeShivs
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I've had a pistol in my pocket, without holster every day for 46 years. No one has EVER noticed.
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Old December 14, 2019, 09:22 PM   #47
AK103K
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I've had a pistol in my pocket, without holster every day for 46 years. No one has EVER noticed.
My buddy had a Walther TPH in his all the time, and every pair of his pants had a TPH "Skoal ring" in his front right pocket.

Naw, no one ever noticed.
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Old December 14, 2019, 11:45 PM   #48
Bartholomew Roberts
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I've had a pistol in my pocket, without holster every day for 46 years. No one has EVER noticed.
Never noticed or never commented? I think that is an important distinction to make. In my experience, many Americans only see what they expect to see. You could tape a Glock to your forehead and they wouldn’t notice because they don’t expect to see it.

The one time I know I was made was when a furniture salesman who was a fellow gun guy saw the magazine baseplate hanging on my front jeans pocket and asked me about it. He was also a CHL. Even though he couldn’t spot the gun, he knew what the spare mag meant.

A lot of times in civilian carry, you can be noticed but still pass because nobody makes a big deal of it. If nobody makes a big deal of it, you start thinking you weren’t noticed. Probably like the guy who had his shirt snag on his SOB holstered 1911 at the Dallas Arboretum and didn’t know he was “noticed” until I said “Hey buddy, you’re showing” even though we were both in the midst of hundreds of people and the gun wasn’t concealed at all.

If you are in an NPE, you can’t afford to be noticed. If I am carrying around the neighborhood and someone notices a bulge in my shirt, who cares? What I am doing is legal and I’ll probably never see that schmuck again. If I am carrying where I work, even if it is legal, being noticed can have some nasty personal consequences.
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Old December 15, 2019, 01:58 AM   #49
Bill DeShivs
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I have been on stage in front of hundreds of people, hundreds of times.
No one noticed.
Most of the time it has been a Keltec P32.
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Old December 15, 2019, 03:00 PM   #50
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I have been in healthcare administration for 35 years and healthcare facilities are generally a non-permissive environment. It is interesting how well a belly band conceals under a set of scrubs.
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