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Old January 9, 2007, 10:55 PM   #1
VUPDblue
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Akins Accelerator Decision v 2.0

Well, it is official. Tom Bowers has posted the official ruling by the ATF that bans the Akins Accelerator. Here is the PDF.

Also, the ATF has issued another PDF that gives specific instructions to those who are in posession of an Akins Accelerator.

What do you have to say about that ?!
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Old January 10, 2007, 03:01 AM   #2
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Damn .

Well, at least I didn't sink a grand into one.
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Old January 10, 2007, 09:15 AM   #3
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So the spring is the machine gun?

Well it does seem to make some sense, by removing the spring the user will have to supply the froward movement needed to fire the rifle again. So it will be semi-auto by every definition in the book.
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Old January 10, 2007, 11:20 AM   #4
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I don't have an Akins Accelerator and really had no interest in getting one but I have to laugh at the "disposal" procedure. They want people, who are currently not on the BATF's radar screen, to send them the spring and sign a piece of paper stating that

1. You owned this device.
2. You know that this device is now classified a machine gun.

What exactly is the benifit to ANY person in doing this!?!? I would think it would be better to simply remove the spring and lock the whoel thing away, or dispose of it permanently, rather than do anything to attract the ATF's attention. You KNOW the ATF will maintain the list of all those 'evil gun nuts" who owned one of these things they will be #1 on the list for harrasement in the future.

Greatest lie ever told... "I am from the ATF and here to help you."
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Old January 10, 2007, 03:18 PM   #5
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friggin' BATF!!!! This is a load of ShiITE!!!

I don't own one, but had looked over the design and idea and thought it was an ingenious "loophole" to the bump fire method used with hellfire type of systems. You can still get the crank style actuators from places like cabelas for under 40 bucks, but how long will it be before these are considered MGs ?
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Old January 10, 2007, 05:50 PM   #6
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But the cranks require constant movement by the shooter. Best way I guess to tell if it is an MG or not would be to lock it down in a vise and pull the trigger back, what do you get?

In bump firing YOU are pushing or pulling something to make each shot happen, the recoil is resetting the trigger so you can pull it again with you hand on the front of the rifle.

The ATF did approve it and should be held to it.
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Old January 10, 2007, 07:31 PM   #7
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Is the BATF authorized or funded to reimburse the owners?
If not, how can they seize private property of a product that was legal?

Sounds like a great class-action lawsuit...
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Old January 10, 2007, 07:42 PM   #8
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Roy Jackson, that right there is my entire interest in this situation. I hate to say it, but I kind of agree with the final decision. The ATF's interpretation of the law makes sense to me when I read the official decision. It is a travesty, IMHO, that the people who bought these items are now out to the tune of $1,100 or more because they believed the ATF when they originally ruled the device to be legal.
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Old January 10, 2007, 10:16 PM   #9
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1,100 bucks huh? Wow, if I was 18 do you know all the SKSs I could buy for that price and each one of them could be bump fired at full auto speeds. I just don't get why that type of stock is banned. It's not like it's changing the triggering/sear system at all. The gun still functions as a perfectly LEGAL semi-auto and still needs a seperate trigger pull for each round fired. Makes no sense to me. Guess I aint been on this earth long enough to completly understand lame gun laws that make no sense. What's next? ATF agents walking around gun ranges with machetes and cutting off anyone's hands for bump firing?
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Old January 10, 2007, 10:27 PM   #10
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Maser: read the PDF ruling. It might make more sense then.
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Old January 10, 2007, 11:38 PM   #11
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They want people, who are currently not on the BATF's radar screen,
They are on the radar screen big time. You think ATF didn't get a list of purchasers from Atkins? Not sending that form in is a good way to get a nocturnal visit from ATF.


What I don't understand is ATF is now allowing these people to possess a device that "...can be readily restored to shoot..." fully automatic with the replacement of a single spring. That still meets their definition of a machinegun.

Quote:
NFA defines “machinegun” as “any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and ntended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.”
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Old January 11, 2007, 01:05 AM   #12
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The ATF did approve it and should be held to it.
This is the key, and I agree 100%.

While I think that their most recent decision makes sense, I think that it's reprehensible that they have reversed their initial decision. I abhor the idea that non-elected people have the power to criminalize/decriminalize objects.
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Old May 5, 2007, 08:49 PM   #13
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This is total crap!!!

1st of all. The AFT could not obtain a customer list from Atkins without a federal investigation. The ATF cannot and will not just show up at your house demanding to see your firearms unless you are under investigation. You can be under investigation unless charges have been filed.

I've work the intelligence areans all my professional carreer. There is a law called Intelligence Oversight. It states that NOONE is allowed to collect intelligence on US Nationals or Citizens. The ONLY group of people that are authorized to do so is the FBI and then ONLY by appointment of a Judge.

If you have one, knowing what I know, I seriously doubt that the ATF is going to shoot themselves in the foot (especially with this administration if office) by going door to door looking for 'evil guns'.

The entire process with this is total ****... why dont people class-action the ATF on this process. How can you say it's ok..... then say no its not? Its like spanking your child for doing what you told them to do!! It's messup up!
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Old May 5, 2007, 09:34 PM   #14
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Yup, I think it's total BS that the ATF ruled that the device was NOT a machinegun and could be legally sold. Then they turn around and change their ruling and force people who paid $1,000 for a stock to completely disable it without compensation. I hope they get their asses sued off for this one.
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Old May 7, 2007, 02:56 PM   #15
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So does this ban the Hellfire system? I was thinking about one for my AR.
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Old May 7, 2007, 04:07 PM   #16
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No, right now it's just the Akins stock that's illegal. That's not to say the ATF can't, or won't, change it's mind down the road... but at least the Hellfire doesn't cost $1,000.
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Old May 7, 2007, 04:08 PM   #17
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So does this ban the Hellfire system?
No, but the hellfire is a non-functional piece of crap while the Akins accelerator actually works.
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Old May 7, 2007, 05:27 PM   #18
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hell fire is basicly bump firing, which you can do without a $35 peice of metal spring that they call the hell fire.
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Old May 7, 2007, 11:53 PM   #19
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They need to re-make the Akins stock with a seperate forward PG so the user can easily provide the forward motion by continuously pushing forward.

The ATF cannot ban people's non-dominant arm!
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Old May 8, 2007, 09:35 AM   #20
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First off, the government can now conduct an investigation into a violation of the GCA (possessing unregistered machineguns) without any problem. I wouldn't be surprised if the manufacture has alreadly released a list of sales to the ATF, either as part of an informal deal to get the ATF to back off of them, or because they are going to have to account for the "machineguns" they manufactured.

I'd worry about the AFT knocking on my door if I had one of these things, and if I can't produce the spring (because of disposed of it in an unauthorized way), I worry about satisfying them that I did in fact get rid of it. There very well may also be a federal law governing the destruction of machine guns. I'm not sure. My state does regulate the disposal of firearms (handguns and NFA weapons).

As far as suing the feds for this classification, they have soverign immunity for one thing, and the regulatory process they go through to classify firearms very well may meet "due process" requirements, just like passing a law making something illegal would do.
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Old May 8, 2007, 11:15 AM   #21
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They are on the radar screen big time. You think ATF didn't get a list of purchasers from Atkins? Not sending that form in is a good way to get a nocturnal visit from ATF.
'
Unless of course you where lucky enough to buy one at a gun show and paid CASH. The letter that went with EVERY one sold from the ATF saying this item was NOT a machine gun and was legal to own. I am guessing that the first person to be brought before a judge will all of them that where sold a grandfather clause.
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Old May 8, 2007, 11:27 AM   #22
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I am guessing that the first person to be brought before a judge will all of them that where sold a grandfather clause.
Not sure what you mean here Travis, but if you think a judge can grandfather those units and thus remove them from the purview of the NFA once the Tech Branch issued that ruling, you are sorely mistaken.

FWIW, Newerguy is correct here. BATFE can, does, and has in the past tracked down parts kits and other contraband items from importers/manufacturers/dealers right to the individual buyer's home address. Witness the improperly demilled Uzi kits imported by Cole, Chinese PPsh41 kits rerouted through other countries, the ill-fated SOCOM M249 and RPD uppers, etc. When BATFE wants customer lists and that sort of info from a dealer, manufacturer or importer to track down what they have determined to be a contraband item, most are cooperative. Not because they necessarily want to, but they know BATFE can make their lives (and their business) very difficult if they don't help. They are, afterall, in the unenviable position of having been caught putting contraband items into the stream of commerce. Don't believe me? Just ask Ernie Wrenn re the SOCOM uppers. Wrenn didn't do himself or his customers any favors by not seeking an advisory opinion on the uppers, and he helped to try and get some of the sold units back, but if you think BATFE can't, or won't, play rough and bend the rules when it fits their need, especially when it relates to NFA weapons, you are mistaken.

Once they have something like a customer list from the dealer/manufacturer/importer, it would be a relatively easy matter to start an investigation and get a search warrant for an individual customer.

As regards the substance of the ruling itself, I hate to say it but I agree with VUPDBlue that the ruling is correct in light of the existing law. That said, I think it could be an easy matter to get around this ruling with a similar device. The trigger on the akins recoils rearward (with the action) backwards into the stock, and is thus temporarily shielded from the users finger until the trigger resets and begins moving forward again. If the shooter pulls the trigger and holds it there without moving their trigger finger, the gun does in fact continue to shoot until empty. I think this may be able to be overcome by simply cutting the stock around the trigger back a bit, so the trigger is never completely shielded from the user's trigger finger. If the trigger was then pulled all the way to the rear, the gun would then fire one round and then the shooter would have to release the trigger to allow it to reset before firing again. If the shooter found the "sweet spot" in the trigger pull - not pulling all the way back, but just enough to fire the gun - and held their trigger finger in exactly the same place, the gun would still work exactly as the unmodified Akins does.
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Old June 27, 2007, 04:43 PM   #23
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1st of all. The AFT could not obtain a customer list from Atkins without a federal investigation. The ATF cannot and will not just show up at your house demanding to see your firearms unless you are under investigation. You can be under investigation unless charges have been filed.
Actually, The Akins Group, who manufactured this item, is a FFL holder, which gives the ATF the power to come look at their books at any time for any reason they want. I would imagine that TAG surrendered the buyer list at the ATF's request since they also manufacture suppressors and other NFA items. It wouldn't be worth losing all of it over a buyer list to them.

Quote:
I'd worry about the AFT knocking on my door if I had one of these things, and if I can't produce the spring (because of disposed of it in an unauthorized way), I worry about satisfying them that I did in fact get rid of it. There very well may also be a federal law governing the destruction of machine guns.
The instructions sent to purchasers by TAG (what the ATF posted regarding the AA stock) included paperwork on how to properly "dispose" of the spring. The owner had to send in the filled out paperwork (obviously to match up against the list ATF has) with the spring included. If you had sold the stock, you were required to say who purchased it and when. Assuming the number of springs you sent in (or people you gave them as 2nd party buyers) matched the number of stocks you were shown to have purchased, you'd be in the clear.

The rumor/hope was that once all had been collected, the ATF would grandfather these in as NFA items as it did with the USAS 12 gauges years ago. If that is the case down the road, they would then be registered NFA items like any SBR, SBS, etc. That is the HOPE.

Quote:
The trigger on the akins recoils rearward (with the action) backwards into the stock, and is thus temporarily shielded from the users finger until the trigger resets and begins moving forward again. If the shooter pulls the trigger and holds it there without moving their trigger finger, the gun does in fact continue to shoot until empty. I think this may be able to be overcome by simply cutting the stock around the trigger back a bit, so the trigger is never completely shielded from the user's trigger finger. If the trigger was then pulled all the way to the rear, the gun would then fire one round and then the shooter would have to release the trigger to allow it to reset before firing again. If the shooter found the "sweet spot" in the trigger pull - not pulling all the way back, but just enough to fire the gun - and held their trigger finger in exactly the same place, the gun would still work exactly as the unmodified Akins does.
Yes, and you can do that based on the adjustment of the accelerator device in the stock. I disagree with your assessment however, as the trigger finger is still depressing the trigger one time per round fired. The law does not state that the trigger finger must move to do so.
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Old June 27, 2007, 09:14 PM   #24
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The rumor/hope was that once all had been collected, the ATF would grandfather these in as NFA items as it did with the USAS 12 gauges years ago. If that is the case down the road, they would then be registered NFA items like any SBR, SBS, etc. That is the HOPE.
The difference, however, is that the USAS12 was reclassified as a DD - an NFA weapon that is still legal for to register and make, unlike MGs which were statutorily cutoff in 1986. IOW, owners of those shotguns were allowed to register them (tax free, I might add) because there was no statutory prohibition on new registrations of DDs.

Quote:
Yes, and you can do that based on the adjustment of the accelerator device in the stock. I disagree with your assessment however, as the trigger finger is still depressing the trigger one time per round fired. The law does not state that the trigger finger must move to do so.
I understand your point, but in the eyes of the Tech Branch its still one activation of the trigger mechanism which starts a chain reaction that ultimately results in more than one round being fired. I think a good analogy may be a semi-auto rifle hooked up to a solenoid or an electrically powered repeating trigger mechanism. The solenoid may actuate each individual pull of the trigger, but in the opinion of BATFE the trigger on the gun is no longer the "trigger" because its not the part that the user directly activates. The electric switch which starts the movement of the solenoid becomes the new "trigger". With the AA, the user pulls the trigger, and if you keep the trigger finger in the same place (in the rearward "pulled" position) the gun keep firing as it would with a solenoid or a machinegun. Its true the law doesn't state the trigger finger must move for each pull of the trigger, but if the finger doesn't move it looks more like a single pull that sets the gun in motion firing a number of shots.
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Old June 27, 2007, 09:17 PM   #25
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Old news, and still a load of crap. I'm waiting till they deem any rate of fire accelerator to be illegal, like a couple states already have. When they come for my bumpfiring finger, they get the middle one first.
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