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Old March 18, 1999, 11:30 AM   #26
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My understanding is that you can build the Class Three weapon, but you must still register it and you cannot sell it. I'm not sure but I think you may also need to get a Class Two license to manufacture if you're going to make more than a couple of weapons.
Manufacturing includes making an SBR, SBS or AOW from scratch or from an existing weapon (such as cutting down a barrel).
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Old March 18, 1999, 11:51 AM   #27
B. Strong
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The question really depends on the circumstances of the situation in question. If an individual approached one and requested information as to the proceedure involved in leaglly converting his semi auto to select or full auto configuration in compliance with fed. & st. laws, and is told to contact ATF before doing anything ,I would think that one would have no problem. As to the scenario in UC, I could see how an ATF agent could try to stick it to someone who would go into technical detail as to the mechanics of conversion without first ensuring that fed. & st. laws were being complied with. BTW, in the old pre-86 days many of the so-called "conversion kits" for sale were intentionally sold in a "out of tolerance" condition so the seller could avoid prosecution in the event that ATF got a hold of one of their kits.These sellers knew that the kits were being used W/0 the form 1's, and they also probably hoped that some of the people buying the kits would be unable to re-engineer them to get the kit to function, thereby relieving the kit dealer of possible liability in the event that the kit was used in a criminal act.
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Old March 18, 1999, 01:50 PM   #28
Brett Bellmore
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Fal308: Now, THAT is interesting! You mean to say that if I were willing to jump through the right hoops, I could get licensed to build new machine guns for my own enjoyment... As long as I kept the numbers within reason? What hoops do I have to jump through, and how much does it cost? I should pass a background check with no trouble; The closest thing I have to a legal record is a wrong left turn back in '78.
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Old March 18, 1999, 04:47 PM   #29
James K
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Manufacturing a Title II device (includes silencers, etc.,) requires a manufacturers tax stamp, and BATF approval of the operation. A manufacturer can make devices for experimentation and for sale to authorized purchasers. But unless you have the stamp, making a machinegun in your basement is illegal, whether you ever transfer it or not. "Manufacturing" a firearm includes making it out of something, whether that something is a semi-auto firearm or a barbeque grill. No, talking about making machineguns is not a conspiracy unless there is evidence of intent to carry out an illegal act. Talking about robbing a bank is not illegal; drawing floor plans, maps, renting a hideout and buying guns would bring the talk into the realm of a criminal conspiracy. If you ever need a technical question from ATF, they will answer over the phone (and not use caller ID). Unfortunately, like the IRS at tax time, an agent's word is not official. If a question is important, write them and get a revenue ruling, which is binding throughout the US and on all agents. Needless to say, don't begin with "I've done this is it legal?" By the way, A US district court ruling is only binding in that district.

[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited March 18, 1999).]
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Old March 18, 1999, 08:57 PM   #30
Daren Thompson
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Brett I understand what U are saying with the enumerated powers thing, but if U make a machine gun in your basement and the ATF catches you they will charge you with a felony. Now I agree you have plenty of legal ammo to take this to court, but they have more money(probably) than you do and will bleed you dry and then throw U in jail. sorry sad but true (where is Bill Gates when U need him)
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Old March 19, 1999, 06:34 AM   #31
Brett Bellmore
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Darren: Where is Bill Gates? Sadly, on the other side; He helped bankroll prop 676 in Washington! As for me, I don't think I could afford such a legal battle, unless we could somehow restrict it to small claims court!
Jim: Well, let's see: I AM an R&D mechanical designer and machinist, working in an R&D shop. And I DO have some interesting design concepts for firearms I'd like to try out. So the idea that I might want to design some experimental firearms, with an eye to getting into the business if they work out, isn't so implausible. In fact, it's the truth; I've noticed that firearms companies seem to start up with relatively little capital, and not much more equipment than I already have at home. So I guess the next step would be to contact the BATF. By the by, why do you refer to them as the ATF? You can't drink them, you can't smoke them, and as Waco demonstrated, you can't even fire them; They're the BUREAU of ATF, not ATF itself!
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Old March 22, 1999, 11:10 PM   #32
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I know you were being funny...but, being picky about "official" titles is lame (vs ATF/BATF).

In letter, if you are a "firearms/related" manufacturer" you are, defacto, against the law if you make a working example of your design prior to notifying BATF of your intent. The letter of the law is so vague that that is the bottomline. Further, if you tell others (non-BATF) that this is what you are doing, you could be guilty of "conspiracy" at the discretion of BATF.

My point is that, if they wished to, the BATF could deem you a felon at their discretion for whatever you do in any kind of machinist/manufactering capacity...I'm not saying they always do it, but they "legally" can if they wish.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

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Old March 23, 1999, 06:31 AM   #33
Brett Bellmore
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DC: I suppose it's silly, but for some reason refering to the BATF as "the ATF" annoys me. We don't go around refering to the FBI as "the I", do we? As far as I know, it's not that the name of the bureau ever got officially changed; They just dropped the first letter, maybe because a TLA fit better on their blazers.
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