Hot 45 colt vs 454 Casul

[mavracer]

IMO with the selection of powders available, pressures & velocities can be kept reasonably close, even though this is "possible" I don't recommend it for 99% of reloaders, but I do think it's possible, but to me not practical, since I own both cartridge & guns...

absolutely I don't understand the need to do this.I don't even load my 45s that hot.I try to keep them under 21,000 as I have guns that are not safe over that.if a 250gr SWC at 1000 wont do the job I'll get the 44mag out and if 300gr @ 1300 won't do the job I want a rifle

[CraigC]

No response from tINY???

[CraigC]

Nice to see you chime in CraigC, as you're always spot on the money.

Thank you sir!

Just thought I might throw a little more fuel on the fire with a quote from Ross Seyfried's article on the .45Colt.

"I do not use the .454 Casull. Many will want some explanation surrounding my disregard for the .454. Basically it is not necessary. That is, the .45 Colt can do virtually anything the .454 can do. This is because large-bore revolver performance is a function of cylinder capacity, not case length. The short cylinders in the Freedom revolvers actually have less capacity than a long, custom Ruger cylinder. Other revolvers with full-length cylinders chambered for the .454 Casull have the same capacity as, not more than, the .45s. The long cases are really only added expense. The only real excuse for owning a .454 is to be able to say the cartridges will not fit in a .45 Colt chamber."

Read it in its entirety here:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...d=321&magid=24

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

454 Casull max load 395 gr, 21 gr H110, 1.770", 43,200 cup

My notes:
Win 45 Colt brass, CCI200 large rifle primer, in Western Fields .410 [OEM Stevens]
405 gr. cast .458" bullet, 2.1", 40 gr. H110, CCI200 large rifle primer, compressed, top hat and cratered primer, .004~.005" case head expansion, case head to body cracking.

[darkgael]

Win 45 Colt brass, CCI200 large rifle primer, in Western Fields .410 [OEM Stevens]
405 gr. cast .458" bullet, 2.1", 40 gr. H110, CCI200 large rifle primer, compressed, top hat and cratered primer, .004~.005" case head expansion, case head to body cracking.

I'm not sure what that means. It appears that you loaded a .45 Colt case with a 45-70 bullet, using an overload of H110 and shot it down a .410 diameter barrel.
Am I wrong in that?
Pete

[CraigC]

That's how I read it.

[Clark]

In testing the 45 Colt brass, I saw it go up to ~ a 454Casull double load before the brass gave up.

Don't try this in a 454Casull, they don't the thick steel walls of a .410 break action Stevens.

[darkgael]

Heck with the Casull - what happened to the Stevens when you fired an already overpressure load down a too small bore (.458 vs .410)?
Why use an undersized bore/oversized bullet for the test? At that rate, the pressures may have been higher than a double load. How did you measure the pressure?
I expect that that test had to seriously compromise the integrity of the barrel, thick chamber walls or not.
Pete

[CraigC]

I cannot express how foolish it is to fire such an overpressure load down the barrel of a break-open .410 shotgun. Dimensional differences aside, those things are not heat-treated like a centerfire rifle. Extremely dangerous!!!

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I've been starting to build double rifles on side by side shotguns...

the thickness of the steel has nothing to do with the pressure the action can handle...

... in general Stevens guns are economy grade guns, & are not known for either extreme strength or using better than normal steels...

I know of no shot gun out there that is "proofed" for the pressures generated by the 454 Casull, even the Contenders, that can safely be shot with more than a hand full of rifle cartridges up to medium hot 45-70 loads are not safe for the 454 Casull pressures, & the Contender would be a much safer gun for those pressures, than any .410 break action

personally if you are saying you are shooting loads that hot in a break action .410, no matter what the brand, your post should be deleted, it is definately unsafe

[darkgael]

if you are saying you are shooting loads that hot in a break action .410

I got the impression that Clark was testing the .45 Colt brass.
If it was a test - not an engineer here - it seems like there were a lot of variables, each one of which alone could produce a very high pressure.
1- a double the max powder load.
2- a bullet that is heavier than cited in load data.
3- a bullet 0.0480" larger than the bore.
All three together? I wonder what the pressure actually was? I wonder at what pressure the case actually failed (all you know is that the pressure was high and the case failed....unless the actual pressure was measured in some way.)
Pete

[azredhawk44]

Craig... I take issue with 2 concepts that I feel you're ignoring.

#1 - Pressure breaks steel.

A .45 Colt case is 1.285 inches long.
A .454 Casull case is 1.383 inches long. Roughly a tenth of an inch longer. That is about 8% more internal case capacity.

But, regardless of the fact of the size of the pressure vessel (the case), if a gun can't handle 50K psi in a .454 Casull then it can't handle 50K psi in a .45 Colt, or 50K psi in a little .45 Auto Rim. 50K psi expands outwards and backwards just as much as it pushes a bullet down the bore.

Can we agree on that?

#2 - Pressure has a relationship to volume.

That .454 case is 8% larger inside than a .45 Colt case. Assuming a perfect cylinder for each case that is 1.285" tall for .45 and 1.383" tall for .454 (since I'm too lazy to get exact volumes right now)... a .454 case has a volume of 0.274 cubic inches. A .45 Colt case has a volume of .254 cubic inches.

50k PSI in 0.274 cubic inches can always push more piston than 50k PSI in 0.254 cubic inches. In fact, by the time that the 0.254 ci has expanded by pushing it's bullet a tenth of an inch... it no longer contains 50k PSI. It contains 46,350psi at that point.

Given a 6 inch barrel and no barrel gap... a .45 colt with 50k PSI initial chamber pressure will have a muzzle pressure of 6,650 PSI. A .454 with 50k PSI initial chamber pressure will have a muzzle pressure of 7,158 PSI.

My point: 50k PSI in a larger volume does more work than 50k PSI in a smaller volume.

Everybody's garage air compressor should validate that fact. A 50 gallon compressor tank with 200psi stored in it will run tools longer without refilling with air than a 20 gallon compressor tank with the same 200psi in it.

[mapsjanhere]

For the second point, you should be right, but I could get 50 ksi very rapidly in a large case by using a little bit of a fast powder, and barely push the bullet out of the gun compared to the progressive powder in the smaller cartridge. In a good load, the peak pressure isn't reached until the bullet has started to accelerate, so brass volume does not equal gas volume. Peak pressure is not automatically related to performance, we just try to make it so.

[mavracer]

azredhawk44
I'm going to step in and try to point out what Craig's point is. case capacity is no longer an issue with these big boys because cylinder length becomes the limiting factor in the custom guns and the factory guns the chamber length is the same weather it's a redhawk in 45 colt or a super redhawk the cylinders are the same length and the same diameter.loaded to max COAL for the cylinder the cases will have the exact same volume.

[CraigC]

Craig... I take issue with 2 concepts that I feel you're ignoring.

I'm ignoring nothing. Seyfried's point is that in revolvers it is more an issue of cylinder capacity, not case capacity. That in fact, because of its shorter cylinder the FA .454 has less cylinder capacity than most custom .45's. That, as I said before, the .45Colt can be loaded longer, while the .454 must have its bullets seated deeper, reducing case capacity. A draw. That extra tenth of an inch the .454 case has on the .45 is meaningless when you have to seat the bullet deeper to fit the cylinder. One major reason why most gunsmiths won't build a custom Ruger .454. There's no point. Now, the original discussion was about a single shot rifle but all the pertinent data is for revolvers so that is what we have to work with. Surely the bullets could be seated out in a single shot (if there is enough throat) but you would have to experiment to be sure you had enough neck tension for a complete burn with the best powders for the task, H110 and 296.

Can we agree on that?

We can assume that the weapon in question would be strong enough to handle either the .454 loaded to its potential or the .45Colt with five-shot loads in the 50-55,000psi pressure range. Anything else is a whole nuther can of worms.


Funny thing is that I made the statement, "the .45 can do anything the .454 can do" before re-reading the Seyfried article and seeing that that's exactly what he said. Notice I said that it can do anything the .454 can do, I never said it could reach the same velocities. Point being that if the gun is strong enough, there is no reason to rechamber a .45Colt to the .454Casull. That extra 10,000psi gains you far more in recoil and muzzle blast than velocity. Spending a dollar to save a dime. Even the Speer manual suggest that there is nothing to gain by running it all the way up to 65,000psi. You can play with hypothetical numbers all you want. The proof is in the shooting and the .454 has very little to offer over the .45Colt at 50-55,000psi. If anybody REALLY wants to take Ross Seyfried to task on what he wrote concerning the two cartridges, I'd suggest you get your ego checked.

Or tell me, what exactly do you think you're gaining with another 100fps???

[Clark]

CLARK... You are lucky to still have your head...

And some lucky people handle poisonous snakes every day and don't get bit.

And some lucky people have repeatedly climbed Mt Everest, and do not get killed.

What does it all mean?
It's all luck how I stress test guns and never get hurt.

[Pointer]

That's like saying the 22 short is just as good as the LR and the LR is just as good as the 22 Mag...

The 40 S&W is a 10mm Short and there is NO comparison.

If you're gonna reload... then you can reload the 454...

Also, if you get a 460 S&W... you can shoot all three calibers and the versatility is really fab!

[CraigC]

That's like saying the 22 short is just as good as the LR and the LR is just as good as the 22 Mag...

Did you actually read the thread??? The difference between high velocity .22LR and the .22Mag is about 600fps, or 50%. The difference between the .45Colt and the .454 in THIS discussion is 100fps or about 8%.

If you're gonna reload... then you can reload the 454...

So you would send your rifle off to be rechambered just to change the headstamp and gain 100fps and all the recoil that 10,000psi more pressure brings you?

Nevermind, you obviously didn't read the thread.

[Clark]

I can get more power out of a 40sw with handloads than I can from a 10mm.

The longer over all length of the 10mm cannot offset the 40sw case superior strength.

The 10mm case is the weakest I have ever tested, followed by the 7.62x39mm.

The large primer pocket, narrow case, and deep extractor groove make a weak spot that makes the primer pocket expand and the primer fall out of the 10mm case with less pressure than any other case.

The 45Colt does not even have and extractor groove. It is very strong.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by CraigC

So you would send your rifle off to be rechambered just to change the headstamp and gain 100fps and all the recoil that 10,000psi more pressure brings you?

How much more recoil do you get with only 100 fps (say 1600 fps bumped to 1700 fps) velocity gain?

Does it really take 10,000 psi more to squeeze 100 fps more velocity? (Choose your powders carefullly.)

You are right about the strength of a solid head 45 Colt cast being able to push substantially higher velocities/pressures than the old balloon head case and any of the many older firearms still used today would be safe with. That might be reason enough to change the headstamp of my firearms. So I can use the Casull-headstamped cartridges for my hot loads, to eliminate the accidental chambering of one of those loads in a gun not capable of withstanding the pressure.

Back in the mid/late 70s they chambered the Ruger No. 3 for the 454 Casull (and a remarkable 4,000 fps 22/454 wildcat). I would hate to see a 45 Colt loaded for the No. 3 carbine find its way into a Ruger New Vaquero or an Uberti replica.

I have not measured the wall thickness of the 45 Colt and compared it to the 454 Casull case. Has anyone here done that? Since the 454s cost about 6 times the 45 Colt (at my local retailer), I should suspect the case itself is stronger, or somehow magically better for high pressures, but I have no evidence (other than the price) to suggest it. Anyone?

Anyhow, I have a Ruger Super Redhawk and a Freedom Arms in 454 Casull. But when I bought the Ruger, if I had a choice between the same gun in 45 Colt or .454 Casull, I would probably have gone with the 454 because of the steel in the cylinder, even though I would probably not push the limits of the cartridge. But if the price tag on the guns were very much difference, I would have to think long and hard.

I guess I think of the extra strength of the FA and the SRH in 454 Casull to be a greater safety margin. And that's worth something to me.

Lost Sheep

[mwmjones]

what about the 460XV? hotter & more FPS, right?