1911 versus P08 Luger - some questions - your thoughts?

[HisSoldier]

but I suspect that with the new technology of machining and sintering steel parts, manufacture of the things would become practical.

As far as CNC machining, it is exactly the same end output as that done using manual machines, but much better. CNC's approach perfection much faster than the 65 year old tool and die maker can, there is no downside to using them.

But why would anyone want sintered parts in a gun imitating a great pistol from long ago? To me that's almost sacrilegious, but I make thousands of parts a year out of steel barstock (Not "Billet" as some folks say, most shops use zero billets), and don't want any huge corner cutting if I'm paying for a heritage weapon. BTW, I have two P08's built by Mauser in the 70's, and someone suggested they used MIM small parts, but my examination of their parts show no evidence of MIM.

There are several guns that some people find beautiful, by which I mean they have fine lines as an artist would say it. The P08 is one that I see as beautiful. The Swiss straight fore strap one's not so much for me, that little bulge at the bottom makes the P08.
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, maybe someone else thinks a Lorcin is beautiful.

[RickB]

MIM's first use in major gun components was the Bren Ten, early '80s.
D&D licensed the "mold forge" process from Millett Sights.

[StukaJU87]

Most reliability issues for Lugers can be traced back to either bad ammo or bad magazines.

From the book Military Small Arms of the 20th Century: "[The toggle lock mechanism] works well for higher-pressure cartridges, but cartridges loaded to a lower pressure can cause the pistol to malfunction because they do not generate enough recoil to work the action fully. This results in either the breech block not clearing the top cartridge of the magazine, or becoming jammed open on the cartridge's base."

Lugers also require stronger magazine springs because they have to push eight rounds up a rather steep angle. Weakened or short springs can cause rounds to load too slowly, causing the action to jam. So just like with modern pistols, one should first try different magazines, if possible, and/or try different ammo, i.e. higher pressure ammo.

A lot of stories of Lugers being unreliable are modern stories, post WWII, and here's why. Real Lugers, not modern reproductions, are between 76-110 years old. People want to keep them original and replacement parts are getting harder to find. Therefore, no one wants to risk destroying their historical piece of history by using the required high pressure ammo, so they use weaker ammo thinking it will avoid damage. They are also probably using the magazine(s) that came with the pistol, again probably 76-110 years old. These magazines will most likely have weakened springs or might be one of the unfortunate ones that had their springs shortened so they would be easier to load. Either way, Lugers were designed to work within certain tolerances and using ammo and/or magazines that are outside those tolerances will obviously not have the desired outcome.

[44 AMP]

Is there a difference (a significant difference) between MIM (Molded in Metal?) and "sintered" parts??

Are they the same thing? close? if not the same, how do they differ?? Don't both use powdered metal, a mold and heat to product the final part??

I was told (by someone in the Army) in the mid 70s that the M-16(A1) used sintered metal for the hammer and trigger, and that was why doing a trigger job on the GI parts was a waste, as if you broke through the (very) thin hardened surface of the contact points, very soft metal was exposed and the whole thing turned to crap in short order.

I have no idea if it was true or not, only that it was being put out as if it were, at the time.

Agree, the whole point of owning a reproduction of a famous firearm is that it is a reproduction, faithful in all details to the original, both good, and bad.

I'll go with CNC machining, because its still the same machining as done before, just using a computer program to set the cutting machines rather than a human. This does allow for less chance of error, and since machines work tirelessly and without union pay, its cheaper. The down side? assuming the computer will always produce flawless parts. If there is a problem, how many bad parts will be made before it is recognized and fixed?

But sintered or MIM parts were not used on the originals, and so should not be used on faithful reproductions.


Someone out there might (possibly) make a Luger with a polymer frame. If so, bully for them. I won't be buying one.

[Fishbed77]

The down side? assuming the computer will always produce flawless parts. If there is a problem, how many bad parts will be made before it is recognized and fixed?

The same issues exist with human machinists when they deviate from a spec.

CNC milling machines aren't magical. They still require quite a lot of human interaction. The importance of good quality control doesn't go away with CNC manufacturing.

[RickB]

Is there a difference (a significant difference) between MIM (Molded in Metal?) and "sintered" parts??

Are they the same thing? close? if not the same, how do they differ?? Don't both use powdered metal, a mold and heat to product the final part??

I was told (by someone in the Army) in the mid 70s that the M-16(A1) used sintered metal for the hammer and trigger, and that was why doing a trigger job on the GI parts was a waste, as if you broke through the (very) thin hardened surface of the contact points, very soft metal was exposed and the whole thing turned to crap in short order.

MIM = Metal Injection Molding

The MIM process does include a sintering step, but it's not the same process as the sintered steel parts made prior.

M16 hammers and sears are made via the investment casting process, completely different from any/all sintering processes.

[tipoc]

Good discussion.

tipoc