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Old December 4, 2017, 12:48 PM   #26
kraigwy
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Kraigwyy - Hoyt holster? That's what I used for five years.
Love the Hoyt's. I've tried several holsters but its my opinion for LE revolvers.

But it was a family operation and its gone.

If I remember right they were special order only. Which was ok, I got mine with my name, badge number, model and serial number of my revolver.
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Old December 4, 2017, 04:50 PM   #27
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Many vintage Hoyt's on Ebay and elsewhere.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...sters&_sacat=0

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Old December 5, 2017, 12:55 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by hgmeyer View Post
I am a former LEO and carried both, a Mel 19 S&W and then a 1911 Colt. There were high capacity 9mm available Hi-powers and Mdl 59 S&W. They held no attraction for me. My belief was that a well placed shot with a powerful cartridge was the best choice I could make. Magazine capacity and fast reloads were not a first priority, single stack or speed loaders were sufficient. The key was "A well placed shot". Constant practice and training, then and now, is the absolute necessity. "Noises 14 or 6 defeat no threat. I understand all of the theory behind a striker fired hi-cap 9mm. I call BS on a lot of the narrative. LEOs need to be "pistoleros", because it is a skill necessary to the job. Because current management was not trained to that concept, "old timers" like Bill Jordan aren't followed.

Every LEO should feel that their handgun is a part of their hand. But, that requires a level of training that makes current management uncomfortable. Guns are just not viewed positively by them and the politicians. And, training and practice is expensive.

A good revolver in the hands of a "pistoleros is a whole lot more potent than a 17 round whiz bang 9mm in the hands of some LEO who barely "qualifies" and has only minimal skills.
I agree, today the police practice spray and pray. In police shootouts in the last 15-20 years the ratio between the number of shots fired and the number of hits on the perp is enough to make a blind man an expert marksman by comparison.
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Old December 5, 2017, 11:54 AM   #29
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Old December 5, 2017, 04:35 PM   #30
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Anytime this topic comes up, there is always a group that seems to believe that the guy carrying a high capacity pistol is less proficient and less prepared for a fight than the old guy carrying a .357 magnum. That isn't necessarily so. Given the option of two or three times the number of rounds available before a reload and the fact that the pistol can be reloaded faster, being the old guy putting rounds through the X with a semi-automatic is ok with me. If four legged critters weighing hundreds of pounds are the target, I'll take the revolver. For two legged preditors I'll take a 9 mm.
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Old December 5, 2017, 04:42 PM   #31
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I learned on a s&w m10 4". good memories.
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Old December 5, 2017, 09:02 PM   #32
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What they're trying to say is most of the youngsters are focused on the tactical operator stuff and simply don't shoot for tight groups as the older generations.

In this situation, without a doubt the well placed round from the old revolverman would prove more effective.

I agree.
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Old December 5, 2017, 11:34 PM   #33
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I completely agree that well placed rounds are the goal for the cop or civilian since that is what stops the fight. What I don't agree with is that all the older officers carrying revolvers were able to do it more effectively than the newer ones carrying semi-automatics. I also don't think being able to shoot out the X at the range is the measure of how proficient a police officer or anyone else is at surviving a gunfight.

I know it is easy to remember fondly the old days when men were men, cops didn't talk much about tactics or capacity, and everyone who carried a gun was a great shot. I'm not sure that was any more true then than now. I know a bunch of cops. Most are older guys like me, but in my experience the youngsters are as committed to excellence as the rest. This idea that cops can't shoot isn't my experience. Them carrying high capacity pistols and a couple of reloads gives them a better chance of survival on the street and makes the community safer. Revolvers have their place, but no longer as service weapons.
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Old December 6, 2017, 07:20 AM   #34
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I believe excellent shots existed in the revolver days
and they exist today with the hi cap autos.

At issue if any is that for the less than stellar shots on
a PD, and that might be the majority, the auto just
triples the chances of misdirected shots.

I remember a case in a Chicago suburb where
an officer killed a suspect with three shots, two
in limbs and one in torso. But the officer let loose
with more than a dozen shots at close range. The
majority of shots hit the street or went wildly
through the neighborhood. Luckily no one
else was injured or killed.
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Old December 6, 2017, 09:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by K_Mac View Post
I completely agree that well placed rounds are the goal for the cop or civilian since that is what stops the fight. What I don't agree with is that all the older officers carrying revolvers were able to do it more effectively than the newer ones carrying semi-automatics. I also don't think being able to shoot out the X at the range is the measure of how proficient a police officer or anyone else is at surviving a gunfight.

I know it is easy to remember fondly the old days when men were men, cops didn't talk much about tactics or capacity, and everyone who carried a gun was a great shot. I'm not sure that was any more true then than now. I know a bunch of cops. Most are older guys like me, but in my experience the youngsters are as committed to excellence as the rest. This idea that cops can't shoot isn't my experience. Them carrying high capacity pistols and a couple of reloads gives them a better chance of survival on the street and makes the community safer. Revolvers have their place, but no longer as service weapons.
While some of what you say is true, still hard to beat the incredible reliability of the revolver.

The old saying goes I'd rather have 6 for sure instead of 15 made sense then and still makes sense today.
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Old December 6, 2017, 11:39 PM   #36
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The old saying goes I'd rather have 6 for sure instead of 15 made sense then and still makes sense today.
If that makes sense to you then a revolver is what you should carry. I will take the 15 (actually 10+1). I'm confident in what I carry. I have no reason not to be.
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Old July 4, 2018, 07:59 AM   #37
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Considering that NYPD is artificially limited in magazine capacity by their silly laws it makes no sense. Of course some of us old cops just do not do well with small semi's.
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Old July 6, 2018, 03:40 PM   #38
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In a gunfight no one cares about the ten ring. If you're hitting the X you're shooting too slow. Survival in a gunfight comes down to speed, both speed of shooting and speed of identifying and processing the threat; good enough accuracy, and a will to win. A little luck never hurts either.

You can spray and pray with a revolver. You'll just run out of bullets sooner.
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Old July 6, 2018, 08:06 PM   #39
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In a gunfight no one cares about the ten ring. If you're hitting the X you're shooting too slow. Survival in a gunfight comes down to speed, both speed of shooting and speed of identifying and processing the threat; good enough accuracy, and a will to win. A little luck never hurts either.
How many gunfights you been in?
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Old July 6, 2018, 08:13 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
How many gunfights you been in?
+1

Sorry, but I see it every day. The hot new auto guy can't shoot, just dumps rounds into the air around the target and tries to look as cool as can be.

The revolver people just shoot better. They come from a generation where they made every shot count and didn't rely on a bucket o' bullets under the gun. Today we have cops that simply cannot shoot and instead dump the guns into innocent citizens on accident, happens all the time in New York.

Add the low reliability of any auto compared to a wheelgun and you quickly see which is the better fightsman's piece. Elmer Keith wrote the wheelgun is king of the fight, the auto is not suited for combat.

Any old cantankerous today with a trusted .38 or .357 is a worse foe to face than any young whippersnapper with his new wonder 9 Block. Get over it, face the facts, revolvers are better than autos and they always have been and always will be.

-M12
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Old July 6, 2018, 09:03 PM   #41
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I have deleted a post implying the police want semis for illegal actions. Not acceptable for us. Also, the reply to it.

As far as the cops not being able to shoot semis well, the X ring etc, blah, blah.

I shoot with a good number of officers. The ones who practice shoot quickly and accurately. An old geezer with a revolver or semi that they don't practice with, probably isn't any good. Isn't that an insight.
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Old July 6, 2018, 11:59 PM   #42
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Any old cantankerous today with a trusted .38 or .357 is a worse foe to face than any young whippersnapper with his new wonder 9 Block. Get over it, face the facts, revolvers are better than autos and they always have been and always will be.
I'm guessing that is just sarcasm to stir the pot M12. I am a member of the old and cantankerous fraternity who shoots with other members and young bucks alike. Most would be formidable foes with either a revolver or pistol. Revolvers don't get much love though. I guess we didn't get the memo.
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Old July 9, 2018, 02:06 AM   #43
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All my semi autos are made by jenner and wrapped in duck tape, my body and spirit are ready!
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Old July 9, 2018, 06:11 AM   #44
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How many gunfights you been in?
How is that relevant to the discussion?
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Old July 9, 2018, 08:59 AM   #45
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I began my LE career with a self purchased Mod 19, 4” and ended it thirty years later with a dept. purchased Glock 23. I was responsible for the firearms program and purchasing of weapons and supplies. When I took over the program we had one box of 158 gr LRN on the shelf, when I retired we were purchasing 100,000 rounds of ammunition for training purposes. Some officers were hesitant about the transition to the semi auto but all successfully made the change. Officers were required to complete successfully the training program set forth each quarter, however an officer could shoot each range day if desired. As far as accuracy I was on the pistol team with my Model 19 and thirty years later could still hit a bowling pin at 100 yards offhand with my Glock so the weapons were comparable in that area. Most police targets are much closer and a proficient officer should score hits even under stress.
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Old July 9, 2018, 09:35 AM   #46
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maybe not necessary to say, but my shooting began with a single shot bb gun, my first pistol was a single shot bb gun, my first real gun was a semiauto ruger, and after that, I became proficient with a smith k frame.

I can shoot my revolver as well as my glock, and I feel that I work with my glock far better than I would if I had never learned how to shoot DA.

There's the rhythm and feeling and follow through that come with a revolver that you learn, and it can be ported into a semiauto.

I don't do well at all with rapid fire when I start reaching for speed, I'm still working on the last shot when I have to fire the next, if that makes sense.

Slowing down a hair allows the entire neural system to reset to base and you are firing from the same condition as you did with the first round.

The guys who have mastered speed and accuracy have just trained themselves to the point that they are running on high speed neural processing, and to a certain extent, bypassing it with muscle memory. Not everyone can do that, I sure can't. I don't consider myself fast, but I am quick. Years ago, I realized that my biggest problem was that I got the gun on target slowly, bobbing back and forth to find it. I taught myself that the tenth of a second saved getting the gun out of the holster and up at high speed cost me at least a second or two getting it zoned in where it belonged.
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Old July 9, 2018, 09:36 AM   #47
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I wish that I could have one of those retired revolvers, a smith, of course. That K frame .38 is the iconic police gun. Funny, I don't like the colts.
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Old July 11, 2018, 08:35 AM   #48
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How is that relevant to the discussion?
He made this statement.

Quote:
In a gunfight no one cares about the ten ring. If you're hitting the X you're shooting too slow. Survival in a gunfight comes down to speed, both speed of shooting and speed of identifying and processing the threat; good enough accuracy, and a will to win. A little luck never hurts either.
I was attempting to discern if it was a qualified opinion or an unqualified opinion. I have no use for unqualified opinions.

Having survived more than one visit to the two way range I learned a few things, one is that misses do not count. So his cavalier attitude about marksmanship is irrelevant if all he ahas ever done is read about it or watch videos.

It may be that X ring shot that enables you to stop the threat. I have competed for decades as well, no body accidentally hits the X ring consistently.
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Old July 12, 2018, 05:50 AM   #49
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I'll put it like this. All the accuracy in the world doesn't matter if they other person shoots or stabs you first. On the flip side, all the speed in the world doesn't matter either if you can't hit the target. Accuracy does matter obviously, and so does speed, however, accuracy costs speed, and speed costs accuracy. The key is to find the right balance between the two and knowing when to prioritize each.

Both revolvers and semiautos are capable of speed and accuracy. My preference is to not be the first to run out of ammo. Other people can carry whatever they like.
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Old July 12, 2018, 07:22 AM   #50
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Using NYPD as a yardstick, reference handguns is a joke!

The stupid bosses (Non-Police) were told safety is a 12lb trigger. My early days in IPSC had me shooting a 1913 Colt 45 1911. Accurised by Al Dinan.

It had a perfect, crisp, 3 lb release. The most accurate Pistol I had ever owned, or shot.

Expecting a young Police Officer (Female) or small Male, slender, not a Tarzan like build, to accurately hit with a 12lb Glock trigger, under the stress of an armed encounter, is a stretch.

The factory trigger at around 5 and a half pounds, is good.

Both eyes open, with good night sights, it is easier to register good hits.

A mod. 65 S&W Revolver, carrying .38 Special Semi-Wadcutter lead hollow points. Good Revolver, good ammo. Good combo. But that era has gone.
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